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Post by laughter on May 30, 2013 6:39:12 GMT -5
IF it is possible to actually 'let go' of those ideas about 'oneness' and what it 'means' and whose 'tangent' is best, THEN maybe we can get back to simply living and doing what it takes to help others 'actually' escape the causes of suffering, BUT.. all of the 'minding' about oneness is its own trap, yammering away about what to believe 'about' direct experiences.. if a direct experience is 'experienced', any talk 'about' it, 'as' direct experience, is pointless.. just look at the criteria, meanings, and structures used to describe 'oneness', or.. just look, without looking 'for' someone else's descriptions of what they want you 'see'.. |
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Post by laughter on May 30, 2013 6:44:57 GMT -5
So here’s a puzzler that I’ve been wondering about: Take this: -- What looks through my eyes is the same as what looks through your eyes -- Call it awareness, presence -- (just pointers) -- that’s the ‘what’ in the above line. Now is this awareness 1. absolutely the same thing -- there’s one Awareness and it’s what is looking through both of our eyes. or 2. the same type of thing. Because we both have eyes, brains, etc. we have the same equipment, and awareness is the natural experience or whatever that arises as a result. It’s not the same absolute thing as in #1 because there is no connection. I’m comfortable with #2 but open to see where I’m amiss. It’s the old Agnostic in me. A person raised in a more god-fearing way may prefer #1. This is still a fresh question in my head. It's just that I feel a little more experiential understanding of the foundation of the question. The conclusion of whether option 1 is the case or option 2 is the case, is still up in the air, for me. Is the conclusion one arrives at with this something that is believed or something that is realized (maybe I'm misusing that term?)? IOW, I can imagine a unity experience being just that: an experience, a temporary state. Who's to say 'abiding nondual awareness' is anything other than just a temporal experience? Couldn't this be something that just comes and goes with death. Ultimately, certainty of either seems to be based on belief to me. More importantly, why does this matter? That's probably the more fruitful question. Probably my ego just trying to prove something again. Maybe poke little holes in what I see as belief bubbles held by nonbeliefbubblebelaboringbuddhas. Actually it doesn't really matter. This is the same conclusion I always arrive at. ohwell Max, So I gave you the theory, the set of ideas and 2nd-hand knowledge that I've encountered along the way that applies to your question. I also mixed it in with a bit of my personal story and included some of my interpretations of what it all meant to me at different points in what the mind sees as a progression. The details of that story as it relates to your question are scattered about over what I've written on the forum over the past year+. If you'd like I can summarize them and center them on your question. No worries if you don't have any interest -- if you don't respond or even if you decline I won't take it in any particular way. ... best of luck with this btw. |
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Post by zendancer on May 30, 2013 6:47:19 GMT -5
Oneness is a direct experience. When it occurs, "you" are not there. The experience makes it obvious that reality is a seamless unity and that the universe is centered at every point. That which sees is the only thing that sees because it is the only thing here. Obviously what's being pointed to is not a thing because it has no boundaries, but we can use the word "thing" to point to that thingless thing. The body retains the memory of the experience, and there is never any doubt about the unity that was experienced. It is not held as a belief in the mind because it is a direct experience, and is directly known through the body. Does it matter? Well, it eliminates the usual fear of death because it is seen that the unified field of all being is never born and never dies; it is infinite, and all life forms are simply momentary manifestations of that infiniteness. Humans do not worry about their condition before birth, and one glimpse of the infinite takes away all worry about their condition after death. It is not so much that the infinite is seen as it is an experience of being one-with the infinite or being lost in the infinite because all boundaries are absent during the experience. This kind of experience (without an experiencer) is somewhat different than realizations in which various assumptions/ideas/beliefs are seen to be false. Seeing through the illusion of selfhood, for example, is a realization rather than an experience. When it is seen that selfhood is a fictitious idea, only, what then remains? The body/mind, universe, and awareness. Life continues, but there is no longer the idea or belief that there is a separate person at the center of what's happening. A friend used to say "You're already dead." Hehe. It's kind of a different way of saying you were never born. ZM Seung Sahn used to say the same thing, and it was amazingly effective at stopping peoples' minds (at least momentarily--ha ha). |
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 7:30:38 GMT -5
Any offers to help Wikipedia with their page, ZD? Kensho |
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Post by tzujanli on May 30, 2013 7:32:09 GMT -5
Greetings.. A friend used to say "You're already dead." Hehe. It's kind of a different way of saying you were never born. ZM Seung Sahn used to say the same thing, and it was amazingly effective at stopping peoples' minds (at least momentarily--ha ha). I favor this awareness.. Be well.. |
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Post by tzujanli on May 30, 2013 7:34:36 GMT -5
Greetings.. IF it is possible to actually 'let go' of those ideas about 'oneness' and what it 'means' and whose 'tangent' is best, THEN maybe we can get back to simply living and doing what it takes to help others 'actually' escape the causes of suffering, BUT.. all of the 'minding' about oneness is its own trap, yammering away about what to believe 'about' direct experiences.. if a direct experience is 'experienced', any talk 'about' it, 'as' direct experience, is pointless.. just look at the criteria, meanings, and structures used to describe 'oneness', or.. just look, without looking 'for' someone else's descriptions of what they want you 'see'.. Awww, you're so cute when you have nothing to contribute other than your dislike of what you 'think'.. Be well.. |
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Post by laughter on May 30, 2013 7:38:15 GMT -5
Greetings.. Awww, you're so cute when you have nothing to contribute other than your dislike of what you 'think'.. Be well.. ... and you are quite transparent when directly provoked. |
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Post by enigma on May 30, 2013 11:23:43 GMT -5
Greetings.. Awww, you're so cute when you have nothing to contribute other than your dislike of what you 'think'.. Be well.. I hope you don't talk to your wife like that.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 12:28:13 GMT -5
You seem surprised gentlemen? I'm sure that's just an act..  |
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Post by laughter on May 30, 2013 12:38:38 GMT -5
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Post by silver on May 30, 2013 12:40:15 GMT -5
It All - is - an act. ~ fake Capn Kirk  |
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Post by laughter on May 30, 2013 13:11:31 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 13:16:31 GMT -5
http://www.existor.com./
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Post by zendancer on May 30, 2013 15:34:42 GMT -5
Any offers to help Wikipedia with their page, ZD? KenshoHi Wren: I posted a response to your question, but it disappeared after I posted it. I have no idea what happened. Apparently something like this happened to one of Silence's posts the other day, so there must be some kind of glitch with the website. I'll try again later. |
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Post by silver on May 30, 2013 15:42:51 GMT -5
That sort of thing (disappearing posts) has been happening with me, too - FYI -  |
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