|
|
Post by teetown on Sept 25, 2011 16:05:47 GMT -5
or stamp my foot...
|
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 25, 2011 17:04:56 GMT -5
I think I see the purpose of the koans, but not how the understanding could be adequately transmitted to another person. The really ridiculous koans seem to make chase itself around in circles until it all seems kind of meaningless. The mind machine breaks down for a bit, because no intellectual answer can be found. It's almost like I take a step back and see that it's just a bunch of concepts and definitions and relationships all swirling around in a self contained whirlpool. I haven't really come up with what feels like a concrete answer to any of the koans you talk about. But they must be pretty cleverly constructed if they can make two different people with different backgrounds and conditioning come up with the same response. I'll give the one about meeting the enlightened woman on the path a shot because it seems so obvious: Give her a hug.  Precisely. You could pantomine giving her a hug, bowing, shaking her hand, waving at her, etc. You would not greet someone by stamping your foot, so that answer would not be acceptable. In a Zen interview, you would do some sort of greeting action in silence. Most Zen Masters would accept a verbal answer because this is a relatively easy introductory koan, but the question was "HOW could you greet an enlightened woman," so the 100% correct response would be an instantaneous action with the body showing how you could greet her. The "enlightened woman" phrase is thrown in just to get the mind revved up. If the koan was "How could you greet ANYONE with neither words nor silence, it would be less likely to snag the mind." The idea of an enlightened woman, however, adds a bit of woo woo to the action. LOL All koans are like this. They are answered through the body without using the intellect. No thought is necessary. In fact, most koans are designed with what is called a "mind hook"--a phrase designed to start one thinking--just like "an enlightened woman". As soon as you start thinking, your thoughts blind you to the obvious existential truth. When I went for my first Zen interview, the teacher said, "When you enter this door (the door to the interview room) you must leave your thinking mind behind. Here, we are only interested in the non-dual truth, and the mind is useless for this." Probably the best-known koan in the West is "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" Everybody knows what the sound of two hands clapping sounds like, but one hand? The intellect is useless for answering that type of question. I already discussed the gender koan about the neurosurgeon and the boy. The father was killed in the accident, so who was the neurosurgeon who said, "I can't operate on this boy; this is my son?" We have so many unexamined patterns of thought and so much conditioning in our lives that most people immediately go into the intellect and ignore the obvious. The first time I heard that koan, I was totally mystified. I responded, "Was it a Catholic priest?" (a priest is a "father") Ha ha. When the teacher said, "No, it was the boy's mother," I felt like a total idiot. Of course! Everybody has a mother and a father, but when I heard the koan, my mind went running off trying to come up with some explanation of who the neurosurgeon might logically be if it wasn't the boy's father. I once did some experiments with koans and discovered that young children can often answer a large number of the simpler koans, but they lose that ability as they grow up. I asked one particular koan to people of different ages. The ability to answer it varied almost directly with age. Up to the age of about 18 almost everyone could answer it. Beyond that age the number dwindled down until after the age of 60 no one could answer it. Long term conditioned patterns of thought totally prevented elderly people from seeing the obvious. When my daughter was about eight years old, I explained to her how koans work, and she really got into them. I was amazed at how many she could answer. One day, just for fun, I asked her a koan that I had been contemplating without success for almost a year. She answered it, and at first I brushed off her answer, but then I realized that she was right! Ironically, as she got older, she lost the clarity that she had had at a younger age and even forgot the answers to some of the koans that she had previously answered correctly. Her intellect gradually clouded her vision until she could no longer see the obvious. Today, at the age of 33, she remembers the answers to some of the simpler koans, but she can no longer see the answers to some of the other koans that she answered correctly when she was 10. I often think that the best koans are the questions that people have in everyday life. "What is the meaning of life?" "Is there a God?" "What should I be doing with my life?" "Should I marry this person that I've been dating?" Everyone already knows the answer to every question that can be conceived, but the answer is buried under layers of conditioning, and it a bit of contemplation to discover what is already known in the depths of being. The koan that Ramana Maharshi routinely suggested, "Who am I?" is not an easy koan. I once heard a Zen Master say that unless someone were willing to spend at least ten years contemplating that particular question, a person shouldn't even work on it. There are hundreds of amazing stories about koans. One of the ones I like best concerned a Japanese Zen Buddhist monk who was given the Mu koan. The Mu koan can usually be answered within three years, and some people find the answer more quickly than that. That koan is given to people who are interested in enlightenment because it often triggers big enlightenment experiences. AAR this monk was given the Mu koan, but he couldn't solve it. All of his fellow monks solved it and went on to solve lots of other koans, but he was stuck. After five years he felt pretty worthless and when he still hadn't solved it after fifteen years, he gave up and left the monastery feeling like a total failure. He gave himself the job of cleaning a cemetery full of Buddhist shrines because he didn't think he was qualified to do anything else. Even though he had left the monastery, he hadn't quit conemplating the koan. Every day he went to this little cemetery and raked, cut grass and brush, and cleaned the tombs and shrines. One day like any other day he was raking up some leaves when his rake caught a small pebble and flung it against the bamboo fence around the cemetery. When he heard that sound, his mind split open and he had a mind-boggling enlightenment experience. Not only was the Mu koan resolved, but the answer to every other koan he had ever heard about was now obvious. He got the whole shebang with one little sound of a pebble, and he eventually because a Zen Master. Life is pretty mysterious sometimes. |
|
|
|
Post by teetown on Sept 25, 2011 17:18:44 GMT -5
Probably the best-known koan in the West is "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" Everybody knows what the sound of two hands clapping sounds like, but one hand? The intellect is useless for answering that type of question. I'm pretty sure you gave this answer on here before, so it in no way demonstrates my understanding but: *slaps the floor Heheh these are fun. The cat one with the sandals on the head, hah what a funny image that comes to mind. Can I ask a question about it? Would Joshu have done the same thing had he actually been one of the two monks involved? I'm inclined to say he wouldn't have. |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 25, 2011 17:37:55 GMT -5
Probably the best-known koan in the West is "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" Everybody knows what the sound of two hands clapping sounds like, but one hand? The intellect is useless for answering that type of question. I'm pretty sure you gave this answer on here before, so it in no way demonstrates my understanding but: *slaps the floor Heheh these are fun. The cat one with the sandals on the head, hah what a funny image that comes to mind. Can I ask a question about it? Would Joshu have done the same thing had he actually been one of the two monks involved? I'm inclined to say he wouldn't have. Can't talk about that one on a public forum. It's a formal koan. Any hints or discussion might ruin someone else's fun and lessen the power of the insight. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Sept 25, 2011 18:24:52 GMT -5
You cannot experience knee pain if you don't know what a knee is...heh I hope you're not suggesting pain isn't real. *whacks TRF with a bamboo stick* I'm still trying to figure out why I hafta know what a knee is in order to have knee pain. Let's whack an infant on the knee and see if he seems to be experiencing pain. |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 25, 2011 19:19:09 GMT -5
I hope you're not suggesting pain isn't real. *whacks TRF with a bamboo stick* I'm still trying to figure out why I hafta know what a knee is in order to have knee pain. Let's whack an infant on the knee and see if he seems to be experiencing pain. Yeah, sometimes I wonder if there are two English languages, the one I speak and some other one that uses the same words but all the meanings are different. LOL I also wonder if other peeps ever experience gaps between thoughts and how long those gaps might be. I've done ATA so long that sometimes total silence reigns for an hour or more. Ain't no words or thoughts at all, but there duddn't seem to be no problem functioning in the world. Knee? What knee? I see what can be imagined as a knee, but no word or thought "knee" is extant until I write these words. Maybe the mind is so dominant in some peeps that being thoughtless in a not-knowing state doesn't seem possible. I guess it's just one more mysterious aspect of what we are. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Sept 25, 2011 20:12:02 GMT -5
I'm still trying to figure out why I hafta know what a knee is in order to have knee pain. Let's whack an infant on the knee and see if he seems to be experiencing pain. Yeah, sometimes I wonder if there are two English languages, the one I speak and some other one that uses the same words but all the meanings are different. LOL I also wonder if other peeps ever experience gaps between thoughts and how long those gaps might be. I've done ATA so long that sometimes total silence reigns for an hour or more. Ain't no words or thoughts at all, but there duddn't seem to be no problem functioning in the world. Knee? What knee? I see what can be imagined as a knee, but no word or thought "knee" is extant until I write these words. Maybe the mind is so dominant in some peeps that being thoughtless in a not-knowing state doesn't seem possible. I guess it's just one more mysterious aspect of what we are. That was my thought too. While driving through town one day, I mentioned to Marie that almost all those drivers are unconscious. She got her usual shocked look on her face, which of course is why I said it (hehe) so I said, 'But fortunately, they don't have to think about what they're doing most of the time, they just have to not think about something else.' (Kinda like I was doing)  |
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Sept 25, 2011 20:19:57 GMT -5
I hope you're not suggesting pain isn't real. *whacks TRF with a bamboo stick* I'm still trying to figure out why I hafta know what a knee is in order to have knee pain. Let's whack an infant on the knee and see if he seems to be experiencing pain. Well your not going to be much help to a doctor, when he asks you where your feeling the pain, are you?...heh And of course if you don't have a knee, your not going to feel any pain there are you? |
|
|
|
Post by Portto on Sept 25, 2011 20:31:41 GMT -5
Yeah, sometimes I wonder if there are two English languages, the one I speak and some other one that uses the same words but all the meanings are different. LOL Actually, there's one dialect for each apparent person. This is more obvious on forums, but it happens in live conversations too. My guess is that this has been noticed by Zen Masters a long time ago, so they prefer to communicate by twisting noses and poking with sticks. I do experience gaps between thoughts, but they don't last more than a few minutes. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Sept 25, 2011 21:17:25 GMT -5
I'm still trying to figure out why I hafta know what a knee is in order to have knee pain. Let's whack an infant on the knee and see if he seems to be experiencing pain. Well your not going to be much help to a doctor, when he asks you where your feeling the pain, are you?...heh Most doctors tend to find me quite unhelpful, but I figure dealing with peeps like me is why they get paid the big bucks. ;D Well, does not knowing what a knee is mean you don't have one? Again, check that infant out carefully to see if you can find some knees, though I would say don't bother interrogating him about the matter. |
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Sept 25, 2011 21:35:51 GMT -5
Well your not going to be much help to a doctor, when he asks you where your feeling the pain, are you?...heh Most doctors tend to find me quite unhelpful, but I figure dealing with peeps like me is why they get paid the big bucks. ;D Well, does not knowing what a knee is mean you don't have one? Again, check that infant out carefully to see if you can find some knees, though I would say don't bother interrogating him about the matter. What is the perception of not knowing what a knee is, except as a "thought"? You have to be aware of the "thought" of what a knee "is" to be aware of the "thought" of not knowing what a knee is... If your not aware of the "thought" of what a knee is, your probably not going to be aware of "thoughts" about what a body is either...heh Which makes being aware of walking around pretty difficult... |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Sept 25, 2011 21:58:45 GMT -5
Most doctors tend to find me quite unhelpful, but I figure dealing with peeps like me is why they get paid the big bucks. ;D Well, does not knowing what a knee is mean you don't have one? Again, check that infant out carefully to see if you can find some knees, though I would say don't bother interrogating him about the matter. What is the perception of not knowing what a knee is, except as a "thought"? You have to be aware of the "thought" of what a knee "is" to be aware of the "thought" of not knowing what a knee is... If your not aware of the "thought" of what a knee is, your probably not going to be aware of "thoughts" about what a body is either...heh Which makes being aware of walking around pretty difficult... Do you not know that we're not talking about knowing the thought of not knowing? Yer spinning faster than a gerbil on crack. ;D If you don't slow down, this is what can happen:  |
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Sept 25, 2011 22:40:45 GMT -5
Cool video,
I'm actually not aware of any spinning except as a thought.
That's what thoughts do, spin around going deeper and deeper into different levels of thought.
But they are simply perceptions arising in the awareness and for now there doesn't seem to be the interest in chasing them...
What is interesting is THIS, this awareness that doesn't spin like that puke wheel...
Been there done it...
Peace
|
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 25, 2011 22:58:47 GMT -5
Yep, not knowing that not knowing is not knowing is a stretch for some peeps. LOL I was talking with a prof from the local university one night, and I could see that we were on different wavelengths, so I said, "Jim, if you're walking down the sidewalk and a car swerves toward you, you don't have to think any thoughts in order to take an evasive action." He assured me that thoughts were necessary in order for a body to move. Ha ha. Tell that to an infant or a dog! I then explained that jet pilots practice responding to possible emergencies because there isn't time to think in an emergency. My friend vehemently objected to my statement, and assured me that in an emergency jet pilots think faster, and that's the purpose of the training. At that point I changed the subject because it was obvious that he lives so totally in his head that any further conversation about that particular issue was pointless. This is why Zen Masters get a lot of usage out of their Zen sticks.
|
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Sept 25, 2011 23:50:26 GMT -5
The way I approached this issue with Marie was to demonstrate (Okay, she doesn't always like demonstrations) that the body can respond first, followed by a thought. First I moved like I was going to hit her in the face, and I had her notice if she had a conscious thought about blinking before she blinked. Then I casually threw something harmless at her face and had her notice if she thought through how to block it with her hand first, or if her hand moved first and then she thought about what happened.
From there the discussion moved to how these spontaneous reactions can be slowed through the distraction of thinking of other things, which is why it is said that God can run your life more effectively than you can.
|
|
