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Post by mamza on Mar 8, 2011 18:17:55 GMT -5
Yes! I'm with jason. An experience is just a segment of somethingness designated by various boundaries. Things are blobbing up more and more into one dealio, and at this point it seems like everything really is one big blob of whatever. It's just being viewed in segments rather than as a whole.
If it's all one thing, realization would be the end of experiences, wouldn't it? Or maybe not necessarily the end so much as just.... much less of them. Things wouldn't be viewed separately, and so there would be no experience to be had and no person to have it.
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Post by mamza on Mar 8, 2011 18:20:25 GMT -5
Have you ever played The Sims? LOL. I think it describes that fairly well. Except you're the game itself, not the one playing it or the people inside of it.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 8, 2011 18:26:02 GMT -5
Experiences aren't the "bad guy", and are certainly nothing to be feared. But they certainly are never anything more than mind created fragments, are they? Hey Jason, IT really depends on how you look at them and your pov on what if anything moves you towards your own awakening. You are are almost always experiencing something, if you have a realization you have experienced it, if not then how would you ever know you had it in the first place. As I already said when you dream you are experiencing something, when you wake up from sleep even before you open your eyes you are experiencing. When you sit for hours and you see there are no thoughts the observer that sees this is experiencing a no thought state. The only time you are not into experiencing anything is deep sleep and still even in deep sleep some are aware it's rare but Ramana, Niz, Atmaananda and a few others have reported being aware in deep sleep. So IOW it's all one big experience and you cannot help but be in it. I recall doing a 2 day workshop with Leonard Jacobson 7 years ago One of the first things he said was to close your eyes and turn around in the room and now open your eyes and tell me what you see. I see the wall, some chairs, a blackboard etc. This is what you are now experiencing in this present moment you are being present with what is. You see in 99% of your life you are experiencing something. Don't get stuck in the mind trap that it's all mind because it is not. As Angela pointed out to what SS said it's as if a different organ takes over. You can have experience without the mind if not how do you thing some are aware in deep sleep? Anyhow experience is far more than just not the bad guy. It's a wayshower and without it you would certainly and forever be lost. Michael
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Post by karen on Mar 8, 2011 19:06:52 GMT -5
I have yet to see one person here claim experience to be bad.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 8, 2011 19:48:48 GMT -5
I have yet to see one person here claim experience to be bad. Yes and that's a good thing, a start in the direction of truth. The words "You are the sum total of your experiences" are far more profound than most will think or believe yet it's the way and the truth and the light. Michael
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jenpa
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by jenpa on Mar 8, 2011 19:53:48 GMT -5
Okay, so in an 'awakened state' there would be still be experiences, just as before, but with the realization of the unchanging awareness that we are, in which all phenomenon occurs?
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Post by jasonl on Mar 8, 2011 19:59:05 GMT -5
The witness sees the human form sometimes referred to as Michael reading these words. There is the human form. There is thought. There is awareness which these forms appear to. That awareness is YOU.
There is no Michael in one moment having this experience, Michael in some other moment having another experience, only the seamless flow of reality being witnessed and permeated by that which alone is real. Where is "your experience" if you don't first think it into existence? Its non existent, so one's own "personal experience" can at best be seen as nothing more than imagination. Its there when you think of it, but what you are can never be limited to what you can think.
Back to your quote, which I mention above. If you have a realization, what is beyond "you", the awareness you timelessly are, is transcending the mind you are not. To then attribute this realization to the mind can only enforce the sense of identification with what is being transcended. The immovable observer allows transcendance to take place. To attribute "a realization" to something beyond thinking, beyond understanding, something which needs nothing to be what it already is, seems counterintuitive.
IOW, it might be helpful to distinguish between the word realization and understanding. How can you, awareness, realize what you already are? Through mind, not you, understanding what you are not.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 8, 2011 20:02:55 GMT -5
Okay, so in an 'awakened state' there would be still be experiences, just as before, but with the realization of the unchanging awareness that we are, in which all phenomenon occurs? Let someone else speak about this. It might help. I will highlight the word "experience' for you +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The Enlightenment Secret You are not a separate being. You are Being, and never separate. This is the Enlightenment, the happiness, in which all apparent things consist. It is the very Being of you. It's a secret not because there's anyone hiding anything. It's been proclaimed by sages around the world for millennia. Rather, it's a secret because enlightenment is often misunderstood to be a matter of personal achievement, like scoring the ultimate goal. But there's no person there! There's not even a "there" or a spatial location where a person can reside. There is no individualized or separate "you" or "me"; no goal, no task and no achievement. There are no things, and no gaps separating things. Confirmation How to "see" this? Experience confirms this at every moment. The world, body, and mind appear as sensations, feelings and thoughts. These appearances are all arisings in awareness. The person does not see these arisings. Rather, the person is made up out of these arisings, including the supposed act of seeing. If these arisings are investigated, it can be seen that they do not reach outside themselves. They cannot point to each other, touch each other or contain each other. It is only memory that suggests that there has ever been another arising. But memory itself is nothing more than an arising. It cannot truly point backwards or forwards to anything, for during this apparent pointing, there are no objects to be pointed to. There is truly nothing in experience that establishes that there has ever been anything other than THIS. There is no evidence that there were ever even two arisings. If there cannot be two arisings, how can there be even one? What is left? Awareness, our true nature. Dr. Greg Goode You see this is the value of experience it's a gauge, a way-shower, a divine instrument to help you on your path. Michael
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Post by jasonl on Mar 8, 2011 20:03:40 GMT -5
Awakening is not a mind state. It is end of identification with mind states, or more pointedly, the end of the "sense of being the thinker", or the "belief of being a separate self". That's where "the work" is. Its the emotional understanding which appears to be lacking.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 8, 2011 20:12:13 GMT -5
IOW, it might be helpful to distinguish between the word realization and understanding. How can you, awareness, realize what you already are? Through mind, not you, understanding what you are not. Read my next post. Also you need to understand the roots of neo-advaita vs true advaita. In true Advaita the mind is actually used as a tool to see the actual. In true Advaita it has been known for thousands of years that the illusion of what you think you are is in fact very valuable and useful in discovering who you really are. Now of course this takes effort and work on the seeker part. It takes action not just being able to mouth off a bunch of words that seem to ring true. Above all it takes experience. Much of what it seems very lacking in this forum to share. What seems to be shared mostly here are words of agreement but not of personal experience which is sad. To travel the path of truth one must be able to be vulnerable and not to fear that they might not be politically correct in how they say something. Michael good night
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jenpa
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by jenpa on Mar 8, 2011 20:17:11 GMT -5
Right, ultimately the awakened state is not a state of mind, I only used those words as a pointer.
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jenpa
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by jenpa on Mar 8, 2011 20:25:26 GMT -5
The Enlightenment Secret. Good post Michael. That resonates.
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Post by jasonl on Mar 8, 2011 20:26:08 GMT -5
Could this be a form of projection?
I could not agree more with what you are saying. So often people get caught in the "trap" of "believing they are awareness". Its sad when people don't get honest about the personal issues from past that they have not resolved. Often it is these issues which get projected back and forth, my understanding versus your understanding, so that the true issues can be sidestepped in any given mind.
Thus I am far "more into" helping people get in touch with their emotions, getting in touch with the emotional body, than I am about spewing on and on about how they actually are not a separate self. If some minds would only understand it is the emotional undercurrents being triggered which cause projection and personal reaction, abiding peace could finally be realized. But only the brave and earnest souls seem to choose this route.
Yes Michael. I can see you "get it". Its funny, all the talk i've spewed in life, I remember the first "spiritual teacher" i opened up to about "personal issues". I remember there being a lot of fear, fear of opening up to MYSELF LOL. But as you say, one must be able to be vulnerable, which most minds won't touch.
Nice discussion everyone. Im done for the night myself. See you guys/gals soon.
--jason
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Post by enigma on Mar 8, 2011 20:39:14 GMT -5
I have yet to see one person here claim experience to be bad. Thanks, Karen. I've been watching that 'straw man' argument develop and wondering if anybody was gonna notice the straw poking out. Hehe.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 8, 2011 21:10:38 GMT -5
Well it's always a pleasure to stir and serve here. You know I am always good for one more.
Some here were speaking of experiences in the mind sense so I leave you with this cool youtube video that covers the kind of experience I feel you were speaking of. It's 20 mins but well done I thought. Enjoy Michael
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