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Post by enigma on Nov 12, 2010 22:36:04 GMT -5
When what is obvious? That the questions have no foundation? There is no need to proceed from there since all the questions are gone. From what you say, I'm guessing that there's some clarity that the questions are imagined and not really meaningful, and yet ending the questioning does not bring fulfillment? If so, I can at least understand that.
For me, there came a time when the questions ceased, and with it a trepidation of silence; a kind of futility as without the questions there is no possibility of movement from where I was to where I was trying to go, and yet this still has the aroma of a question. Now it's more like 'Since all of my boat building techniques have failed, how do I get to the other side of the river without a boat?'
Assuming I haven't completely mis-guessed the situation already, it becomes more subtle now. The boat building is over and this grim silence is your friend. One question remains: how do I get to the other side of the river without a boat? This question is dissolved the same way all questions are dissolved; by noticing it's meaninglessness. The question arises from the belief that one is on the wrong side of the river and has to cross. Where did that idea come from, and what if it weren't there? Very subtle.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 13, 2010 10:56:28 GMT -5
When what is obvious? That the questions have no foundation? There is no need to proceed from there since all the questions are gone. From what you say, I'm guessing that there's some clarity that the questions are imagined and not really meaningful, and yet ending the questioning does not bring fulfillment? If so, I can at least understand that. For me, there came a time when the questions ceased, and with it a trepidation of silence; a kind of futility as without the questions there is no possibility of movement from where I was to where I was trying to go, and yet this still has the aroma of a question. Now it's more like 'Since all of my boat building techniques have failed, how do I get to the other side of the river without a boat?' Assuming I haven't completely mis-guessed the situation already, it becomes more subtle now. The boat building is over and this grim silence is your friend. One question remains: how do I get to the other side of the river without a boat? This question is dissolved the same way all questions are dissolved; by noticing it's meaninglessness. The question arises from the belief that one is on the wrong side of the river and has to cross. Where did that idea come from, and what if it weren't there? Very subtle. Beautiful explanation. I, too, failed at boat-building. I also failed at bridge-building, airplane-building, swimming, hot-air-ballooning, and submarine-building (LOL), but, thanks to Suzanne Segal, eventually realized that the river and the one wanting to cross the river were nothing more than pernicious illusions. To dispel the illusions the body/mind shifted attention to what is actual and held it there until the actual was all that remained.
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Post by question on Nov 13, 2010 16:37:52 GMT -5
1) When what is obvious? That the questions have no foundation? 2) There is no need to proceed from there since all the questions are gone. From what you say, I'm guessing that there's some clarity that the questions are imagined and not really meaningful, and yet ending the questioning does not bring fulfillment? If so, I can at least understand that. 1) Yes. 2) Even thought there is no need, and maybe no ability or possibility to proceed, there is an urge to move, i.e. to not be still, even stillness is then penetrated with some aimless arrested movement. Sort of like a hegelian 0% movement (unrest) that penetrates the other 100%. So I agree that there is some kind of a "here-there" topology (crossing the river without a boat) going on, but I hesitate to locate it into a spiritual context. I see that the spiritual "here-there" question is itself not the one that is to be solved, it's more like this question is the last remnant of a long questioning process, the "psycho-logical" gist of which I suspect to be this compulsion to move even though there is nowhere and no way to move. In other words, the spiritual "here-there" question seems to me like it is a FORM of this primal problem; the problem is mostly unconscious (it is felt, vaguely, very difficult to express or find a reason for it, the itch that one can't scratch) and when brought into form it can appear as a question, such as "who am I?", or "how do I cross the river without a boat?". So then when I'm trying to solve the "who am I?"-question, I know that deep down I honestly don't care for an answer, I don't need any more information. I'm asking "who am I?" because I hope that the answer will erase the internal conflict. The question itself is but a vehicle, a form, for adressing this primal confilct. The crux of the matter for me is that the question/answer tool is seen to be useless, because it isn't exactly compatible with the problem, it's second hand, it doesn't do it justice and if I still wanted to work with that tool, I'd have to act on an "as-if"-basis (treat it like a koan), but for the aforementioned reasons I can't transfer any faith into such a process. So now I have no tools to address the problem and I'm left alone with the conflict. I can't just say that the question is meaningless and then be done with the problem, because there is no question in the first place. The question itself is only an expression of this state of unrest, of the unscratchable itch.
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Post by enigma on Nov 14, 2010 20:31:31 GMT -5
1) When what is obvious? That the questions have no foundation? 2) There is no need to proceed from there since all the questions are gone. From what you say, I'm guessing that there's some clarity that the questions are imagined and not really meaningful, and yet ending the questioning does not bring fulfillment? If so, I can at least understand that. 1) Yes. 2) Even thought there is no need, and maybe no ability or possibility to proceed, there is an urge to move, i.e. to not be still, even stillness is then penetrated with some aimless arrested movement. Sort of like a hegelian 0% movement (unrest) that penetrates the other 100%. So I agree that there is some kind of a "here-there" topology (crossing the river without a boat) going on, but I hesitate to locate it into a spiritual context. I see that the spiritual "here-there" question is itself not the one that is to be solved, it's more like this question is the last remnant of a long questioning process, the "psycho-logical" gist of which I suspect to be this compulsion to move even though there is nowhere and no way to move. In other words, the spiritual "here-there" question seems to me like it is a FORM of this primal problem; the problem is mostly unconscious (it is felt, vaguely, very difficult to express or find a reason for it, the itch that one can't scratch) and when brought into form it can appear as a question, such as "who am I?", or "how do I cross the river without a boat?". So then when I'm trying to solve the "who am I?"-question, I know that deep down I honestly don't care for an answer, I don't need any more information. I'm asking "who am I?" because I hope that the answer will erase the internal conflict. The question itself is but a vehicle, a form, for adressing this primal confilct. The crux of the matter for me is that the question/answer tool is seen to be useless, because it isn't exactly compatible with the problem, it's second hand, it doesn't do it justice and if I still wanted to work with that tool, I'd have to act on an "as-if"-basis (treat it like a koan), but for the aforementioned reasons I can't transfer any faith into such a process. So now I have no tools to address the problem and I'm left alone with the conflict. I can't just say that the question is meaningless and then be done with the problem, because there is no question in the first place. The question itself is only an expression of this state of unrest, of the unscratchable itch. I think I may be seeing where you are standing, and if so, it's because you've conveyed it so clearly. This is what I meant with "a trepidation of silence" and why I suggested that this silence is your friend, even if it doesn't seem so. I think you understand that where you stand is precisely where you want to go, which is why the distracting movement must come to an end. The seeking and questioning is a sham; a diversion unfolding from within a self attached delusion, much like a Prince who dreams he is a frog and seeks to become a Prince. The search cannot end in finding, it can only simply end. Dreams end. This is the nature of dreams.
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Post by Portto on Nov 14, 2010 21:02:13 GMT -5
Question: It seems to me that what you are describing is simply curiosity. Does curiosity need a question in order to exist?
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Post by unveilable on Nov 17, 2010 7:07:09 GMT -5
I use to approach this search for Truth with my head by trying to understand what I thought would be true. Then I came across the Tolle pointer to feel the inside of my body. I began to delve into the subtle sensations of the physical realm and the noticing became endlessly fascinating as the exploration deepened. For me using my head was the sports equivalent to playing fantasy football.
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Post by linus on Nov 17, 2010 10:44:37 GMT -5
i have to say that i have watched these intense question and answer posts go back and forth in this and other threads, and i must say that it's been looking more like the tail that can't be caught rather than the question that can't be answered. what does one do with an itch that can't be scratched? if you focus on the itch it will only get worse and will literally drive you crazy. if you talk about the itch it will still itch, and you will have included others in you personal issues, but you will have gotten a chance to hypothesize about the meaning of the itch thus expending pent up energy. which may have been the intention all along. or one can breathe refocus ones energy and realize that there is not only no itch there is nothing to itch. i spent years trying to answer questions that are as irrelevant as they are insubstantial. under silent observation they dispersed like a puff of smoke. question you have a fantastic mind but to an outside observer it is working against you, or your intended destination is other than a spiritual teachers website. Linus
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Post by charliegee on Nov 17, 2010 11:36:27 GMT -5
who let the dogs out?
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Post by question on Nov 17, 2010 19:00:01 GMT -5
This is what I meant with "a trepidation of silence" and why I suggested that this silence is your friend, even if it doesn't seem so. I think you understand that where you stand is precisely where you want to go, which is why the distracting movement must come to an end. The seeking and questioning is a sham; a diversion unfolding from within a self attached delusion, much like a Prince who dreams he is a frog and seeks to become a Prince. The search cannot end in finding, it can only simply end. Dreams end. This is the nature of dreams. There is no clue that there may be a prince hiding somewhere, and there is no clue of some frogness that seeks anything, or that it may be a dream of some kind, or a self-delusion. There is no narrative going on once questions are gone. If I attach a narrative to the silence, then it again thrusts me into the same old questioning. In other words, if I regard the grim silence as a friend, then it happens with an expectation, which doesn't seem to be a valueable strategy? But then on the other hand the grim silence at that point is like an endless godforsaken desert and if I let it be what it is, then it seems like one could stay there indefinitely, which again isn't a desirable option. Another observation is that the grimness seems to be objectifiable, while the silence isn't. In that I think there is a flicker of hope that the grimness is actually something that is entertained and thus something that one can lose interest in. In other words, the silence feels grim because it's seen from the point of view of the disappointed questioning and maybe this disappointment is what gives the silence the aroma of grimness?
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Post by question on Nov 17, 2010 19:01:01 GMT -5
Question: It seems to me that what you are describing is simply curiosity. That's a surprising interpretation. What makes you think that?
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Post by peanut on Nov 17, 2010 19:29:20 GMT -5
When what is obvious? That the questions have no foundation? There is no need to proceed from there since all the questions are gone. From what you say, I'm guessing that there's some clarity that the questions are imagined and not really meaningful, and yet ending the questioning does not bring fulfillment? If so, I can at least understand that. For me, there came a time when the questions ceased, and with it a trepidation of silence; a kind of futility as without the questions there is no possibility of movement from where I was to where I was trying to go, and yet this still has the aroma of a question. Now it's more like 'Since all of my boat building techniques have failed, how do I get to the other side of the river without a boat?' Assuming I haven't completely mis-guessed the situation already, it becomes more subtle now. The boat building is over and this grim silence is your friend. One question remains: how do I get to the other side of the river without a boat? This question is dissolved the same way all questions are dissolved; by noticing it's meaninglessness. The question arises from the belief that one is on the wrong side of the river and has to cross. Where did that idea come from, and what if it weren't there? Very subtle. Thank you E..yes very subtle. Excellent
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Post by enigma on Nov 18, 2010 1:40:17 GMT -5
This is what I meant with "a trepidation of silence" and why I suggested that this silence is your friend, even if it doesn't seem so. I think you understand that where you stand is precisely where you want to go, which is why the distracting movement must come to an end. The seeking and questioning is a sham; a diversion unfolding from within a self attached delusion, much like a Prince who dreams he is a frog and seeks to become a Prince. The search cannot end in finding, it can only simply end. Dreams end. This is the nature of dreams. There is no clue that there may be a prince hiding somewhere, and there is no clue of some frogness that seeks anything, or that it may be a dream of some kind, or a self-delusion. There is no narrative going on once questions are gone. If I attach a narrative to the silence, then it again thrusts me into the same old questioning. In other words, if I regard the grim silence as a friend, then it happens with an expectation, which doesn't seem to be a valueable strategy? But then on the other hand the grim silence at that point is like an endless godforsaken desert and if I let it be what it is, then it seems like one could stay there indefinitely, which again isn't a desirable option. Another observation is that the grimness seems to be objectifiable, while the silence isn't. In that I think there is a flicker of hope that the grimness is actually something that is entertained and thus something that one can lose interest in. In other words, the silence feels grim because it's seen from the point of view of the disappointed questioning and maybe this disappointment is what gives the silence the aroma of grimness?Yeah, it is. The silence isn't just a godforsaken desert, of course, and so we can ask why it seems that way. It looks that way as you look through mind, so it seems like mind is looking at a desert. The Prince is imagining it's a frog and so it's looking for it's Lilly pad because that's what frogs do. The Stillness is looking for some movement in itself and it's not happening. You're not looking at or for yourself, you're looking FROM yourself. Stillness is what is looking.
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jazz
Full Member
Posts: 197
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Post by jazz on Nov 18, 2010 11:46:33 GMT -5
What is ?
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Post by Portto on Nov 18, 2010 14:57:23 GMT -5
Question: It seems to me that what you are describing is simply curiosity. That's a surprising interpretation. What makes you think that? That 'unscratchable itch' sounds a lot like curiosity/creativity. It looks like you are in 'explorer mode.'
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Post by peanut on Nov 18, 2010 17:11:13 GMT -5
E...so the the realization that what looks through my eyes is what is looking through yours is what "it's" all about? ...no pun intended!
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