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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 11, 2024 10:01:37 GMT -5
Nah, some folks are pretty happy with their lives, and still curious about the truth.  Exactly. One late afternoon I came hiking down a mountain trail and saw an unusual animal run across the trail in front of me and disappear into the trees. I wondered, "What was that?" I had never seen anything like it before and was curious about what it was. After I returned to town, I called a biologist at the local university and described what I had seen. I was curious, but I certainly wasn't suffering. (It turned out to be a fisher, a nocturnal carnivore that had gone extinct in my state 50 years earlier but had been reintroduced by the wildlife department.) In college I was told that a subatomic particle can move from one point to another WITHOUT crossing the intervening space, and I wondered how that could possibly be. I was curious. I was also curious about the observer paradoxes in many fields of science and what a subatomic particle actually IS. I was curious but I wasn't suffering by any usual definition of that word. I could list a dozen other things that I became curious about that were existential in nature, and most of them were related to seeing logical inconsistencies, incongruities, or paradoxes related to the concensus paradigm--things that didn't make sense. When a four-year old child asks, "Why is the sky blue?" (which is actually an informal Zen koan) does that mean that the child is suffering? Not in my book. Gopal hasn't gotten past the tendency to think that everyone sees the world as he does. This is pretty common. It's kind of a shock to get out into the real world and see that there are people who see the world completely differently than you do. Or maybe put another way, we all think our view of the world is the correct view. It's difficult to get past the view that we are correct about most things. We don't realize the subjectivity of our own view. For most people this attitude is stubbornly persistent. Of course we can see other people have other views. But they don't see that I have the correct view. So for Gopal it's all about suffering, and ending suffering. And then we collect in tribes. My problem is, I'm a tribe of one. But I of course don't consider it a problem. From one of the Janwillem van de Wetering books, I think the first, The Empty Mirror, "When a pickpocket sees a priest, all he sees are his pockets". 3 books on Zen, he was a pretty cool writer of detective/murder mystery fiction too, about 14 novels. He should have written more with the Commissaris as the central character, he was the wise old master. The best book, The Japanese Corpse. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 11, 2024 10:53:21 GMT -5
Exactly. One late afternoon I came hiking down a mountain trail and saw an unusual animal run across the trail in front of me and disappear into the trees. I wondered, "What was that?" I had never seen anything like it before and was curious about what it was. After I returned to town, I called a biologist at the local university and described what I had seen. I was curious, but I certainly wasn't suffering. (It turned out to be a fisher, a nocturnal carnivore that had gone extinct in my state 50 years earlier but had been reintroduced by the wildlife department.) In college I was told that a subatomic particle can move from one point to another WITHOUT crossing the intervening space, and I wondered how that could possibly be. I was curious. I was also curious about the observer paradoxes in many fields of science and what a subatomic particle actually IS. I was curious but I wasn't suffering by any usual definition of that word. I could list a dozen other things that I became curious about that were existential in nature, and most of them were related to seeing logical inconsistencies, incongruities, or paradoxes related to the concensus paradigm--things that didn't make sense. When a four-year old child asks, "Why is the sky blue?" (which is actually an informal Zen koan) does that mean that the child is suffering? Not in my book. Absolutely. I've come to think of the entire endeavor of science as a sort of "collective neti-neti". Humanity, as a whole asking "what is all .. THIS??  ". It's fascinating and poignant all at the same time how all the answers will just keep leading to more questions, ever onward. But for the individual seeker, the curiosity can end. At some point, near the end, all the search became for me was a sort of very passionate and naked, raw curiosity. A glorious sense of confusion.  Yes, and perhaps the most important realization prior to realizing anything of importance is realizing that one doesn't understand anything of real importance. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 11, 2024 11:21:03 GMT -5
Some people awaken spiritually without ever coming into contact with any meditation technique or any spiritual teaching. They may awaken simply because they can't stand the suffering anymore. -Eckhart Tolle
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Post by zendancer on Jan 11, 2024 11:59:32 GMT -5
Some people awaken spiritually without ever coming into contact with any meditation technique or any spiritual teaching. They may awaken simply because they can't stand the suffering anymore. -Eckhart Tolle True, and according to one website that surveyed spiritual experiences and the triggers for those experiences "abject despair" was the most highly correlated conndition with awakening. The other three highly-correlated conditions or "triggers" with awakening were (1) meditation, (2) being alone in nature, and (3) reading spiritual literature. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 11, 2024 14:08:25 GMT -5
Absolutely. I've come to think of the entire endeavor of science as a sort of "collective neti-neti". Humanity, as a whole asking "what is all .. THIS?? ". It's fascinating and poignant all at the same time how all the answers will just keep leading to more questions, ever onward. But for the individual seeker, the curiosity can end. At some point, near the end, all the search became for me was a sort of very passionate and naked, raw curiosity. A glorious sense of confusion. Yes, and perhaps the most important realization prior to realizing anything of importance is realizing that one doesn't understand anything of real importance. Most definitely. And it's great news .. for everyone! The existential truth is a birthright. Don't have to be thin, rich, smart or hard working. No need to search for it, pay for it, pray for it or do the right thing. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 11, 2024 18:17:15 GMT -5
Did a search of Niz's "I Am That" online .pdf for the word "limitaton". Found the following.
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M: When you have understood that all existence, in separation and limitation, is painful, and when
you are willing and able to live integrally, in oneness with all life, as pure being, you have gone
beyond all need of help. You can help another by precept and example and, above all, by your
being. You cannot give what you do not have and you don't have what you are not. You can only
give what you are -- and of that you can give limitlessly.
Q: But, is it true that all existence is painful?
M: What else can be the cause of this universal search for pleasure? Does a happy man seek
happiness? How restless people are, how constantly on the move! It is because they are in pain
that they seek relief in pleasure. All the happiness they can imagine is in the assurance of repeated
pleasure.
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Post by farmer on Jan 12, 2024 5:17:57 GMT -5
Yes, and perhaps the most important realization prior to realizing anything of importance is realizing that one doesn't understand anything of real importance. Most definitely. And it's great news .. for everyone! The existential truth is a birthright. Don't have to be thin, rich, smart or hard working. No need to search for it, pay for it, pray for it or do the right thing. Except how does that follow zd’s point?  |
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Post by laughter on Jan 12, 2024 13:52:57 GMT -5
Most definitely. And it's great news .. for everyone! The existential truth is a birthright. Don't have to be thin, rich, smart or hard working. No need to search for it, pay for it, pray for it or do the right thing. Except how does that follow zd’s point? Ah .. ok .. well, I see why you asked this. There is no realization more profound than not-two, but it doesn't make you important, and it puts the importance that anyone else might ascribe to it into a different perspective. It's really not entirely inaccurate to say, that the realization that ends seeking, as profound as it might be, isn't really the realization of anything all that important. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 12, 2024 13:57:21 GMT -5
Did a search of Niz's "I Am That" online .pdf for the word "limitaton". Found the following. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- M: When you have understood that all existence, in separation and limitation, is painful, and when you are willing and able to live integrally, in oneness with all life, as pure being, you have gone beyond all need of help. You can help another by precept and example and, above all, by your being. You cannot give what you do not have and you don't have what you are not. You can only give what you are -- and of that you can give limitlessly. Q: But, is it true that all existence is painful? M: What else can be the cause of this universal search for pleasure? Does a happy man seek happiness? How restless people are, how constantly on the move! It is because they are in pain that they seek relief in pleasure. All the happiness they can imagine is in the assurance of repeated pleasure. And an optimal Stoic can live their life with a minimization of this chase. Grace puts an end to it. People might find it contradictory that someone with the understanding that Niz describes might feel pain of some sort, or might even find themselves constantly on the move. All attempts at explaining the absence of contradiction, are doomed!  |
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