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Post by laughter on Oct 19, 2023 6:36:53 GMT -5
We can't do or perform surrendering, if we were to do, that's an another action. This action now keeps repeating itself. Surrendering has to happen by itself out of clarity. Let's just say, you are both not wrong. What sifty suggests is a contradiction of terms, of course. In that sense, you are right and he is wrong. However, from the perspective of only THIS unfolding spontaneously in the eternal now, it is not a contradiction. In that sense, you are wrong and he is right.   |
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Post by laughter on Oct 19, 2023 6:41:26 GMT -5
Robert Sapolsky's book. I read a headline about it. He's a neuroscientist who argues free will is an illusion. Makes things so much easier. Given the same circumstances, we're all likely to be Hamas or the IDF. Kind of undoes the anger and hatred. I like it. No interest in reading the book though. You know there's a lot of shit we ignore. Tigray, CAR, Myanmar, South Sudan. Violence and war, slaughter somewhere at any given moment. We focus on Ukraine and Israel, why? I think I know why. It doesn't matter. It's not my focus. "First take the plank out of your eye." Yes, good points, relatively speaking. But an intellectual position that there is no free will is similar to a true Christian believer's absolute trust in God .. just without the God part.  The precipice is about insight, and at the precipice .. what are we standing on? The void, which is one step away, is a free fall. Even the intellect can get a shadow of this: neither destiny nor free will is the case. Albert Low, a Zen master put it as "arouse the mind, without resting it anywhere". |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Oct 19, 2023 9:14:41 GMT -5
We can't do or perform surrendering, if we were to do, that's an another action. This action now keeps repeating itself. Surrendering has to happen by itself out of clarity. Let's just say, you are both not wrong. What sifty suggests is a contradiction of terms, of course. In that sense, you are right and he is wrong. However, from the perspective of only THIS unfolding spontaneously in the eternal now, it is not a contradiction. In that sense, you are wrong and he is right. Surrender for the seeker could be seen from at least three different perspectives (a trinity, if you will -- three that are in fact one). The gradual: The seeker who feels like they have will exerts this will to do "the practice of surrender" -- the practice consists of hypervigilantly preventing the will & attention from being entrapped in anything BUT the practice. It is, in effect, what laughter just called "arousing the mind without resting it anywhere." This practice tends to increase a relative sense of peace, and in the process, weakens other attachments and identifications. A mind where attachments are weakened is less resistant to seeing the truth. Also, crucially, surrender in this practice sense is an act of continuous discernment between the me and not-me (because it constantly asks the question: what is happening now? I need to know so that I can refrain from taking it seriously and getting my attention & willpower entrapped in it). So the "gradual" practice of surrender sets the stage for the next perspective. The sudden: This surrender cannot be "willed" but can come about in a flash -- either a temporary one, which is a glimpse, or a permanent one, which is realization. It's an insight. It's transitional moment of recognition that there is no independent surrenderer, no one who wills (not even to will surrender in the gradual sense above). Often this is a 'unity' kind of experience. The message contained in this insight envelope is in fact the next perspective. The absolute: This perspective is really no perspective at all. Because from this perspective there was never any problem, never any ignorance, never any surrenderer, never any finder. This is only a perspective, really, when seen from one of the other two perspectives above. The other two perspectives, from this 'non-perspective perspective,' cannot be said to be perspectives at all. And so the "gradual practice of surrender" is itself no such thing, really, since its doing is not what it seems to be, and it is "done" by an entity that is not what it seems to be. |
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Post by steven on Oct 19, 2023 9:20:32 GMT -5
Robert Sapolsky's book. I read a headline about it. He's a neuroscientist who argues free will is an illusion. Makes things so much easier. Given the same circumstances, we're all likely to be Hamas or the IDF. Kind of undoes the anger and hatred. I like it. No interest in reading the book though. You know there's a lot of shit we ignore. Tigray, CAR, Myanmar, South Sudan. Violence and war, slaughter somewhere at any given moment. We focus on Ukraine and Israel, why? I think I know why. It doesn't matter. It's not my focus. "First take the plank out of your eye." Yes, good points, relatively speaking. But an intellectual position that there is no free will is similar to a true Christian believer's absolute trust in God .. just without the God part. The precipice is about insight, and at the precipice .. what are we standing on? The void, which is one step away, is a free fall. Even the intellect can get a shadow of this: neither destiny nor free will is the case. Albert Low, a Zen master put it as "arouse the mind, without resting it anywhere". So much about one’s spiritual journey can be pleasure full, especially the surrendering bit. That why I think I wrote about the snickers bar incident, it was the 1st thing that came to mind when I watched Sifty’s video. The ‘act’ of surrendering can be so pleasure full that you get addicted to the act, and keep consciously ‘doing it’. But at some point ALL must be let go of, including the letting go. In my own journey it was all about enlightenment, I had an insatiable curiosity and wanted to ‘know’ what all the Buddhas knew, I wanted to experience the same things and plumb the depth and breath of our existence. For decades I practiced nearly every kind of meditation and exploration technique possible. Including the practice of surrendering, and I had many many keen insights and even cosmic experiences that in aggregate helped evolve me into a more functional, more chill, more patient and compassionate and capable human being. But it wasn’t until one day I had the realization that nothing anywhere is true, even perceived universal truths are subjective to the observer, so no truth can or should be trusted implicitly. With that I realized that my decades long search to KNOW the TRUTH was utterly pointless. With that realization I literally kind of ‘pop’d’ into aware oblivion, and stay that way for about 3 days. After that my hungry search was over, and I lost all interest in this ‘spiritual stuff’ that had absorbed my life for decades, and I became much more interested in just living my life as is. There are a thousand paths, millions, trillions of paths to arrive there, but no matter the path of the individual, no matter the goal or the practice, it all has to be let go off to enter completely into that effervescent aware living void. In my experience you cannot actively consciously choose when where and how that last letting go happens, when the time and conditions are right, you just sort of ‘pop’. Like a soap bubble floating on the breeze. |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 19, 2023 10:06:34 GMT -5
Robert Sapolsky's book. I read a headline about it. He's a neuroscientist who argues free will is an illusion. Makes things so much easier. Given the same circumstances, we're all likely to be Hamas or the IDF. Kind of undoes the anger and hatred. I like it. No interest in reading the book though. You know there's a lot of shit we ignore. Tigray, CAR, Myanmar, South Sudan. Violence and war, slaughter somewhere at any given moment. We focus on Ukraine and Israel, why? I think I know why. It doesn't matter. It's not my focus. "First take the plank out of your eye." Yes, good points, relatively speaking. But an intellectual position that there is no free will is similar to a true Christian believer's absolute trust in God .. just without the God part. The precipice is about insight, and at the precipice .. what are we standing on? The void, which is one step away, is a free fall. Even the intellect can get a shadow of this: neither destiny nor free will is the case. Albert Low, a Zen master put it as "arouse the mind, without resting it anywhere". Yes. Ideas about the truth always fall short, but some are useful at the right time. "There but for the grace of God go I," has become a mantra for.me lately. It really lowers my blood pressure. |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 19, 2023 10:18:46 GMT -5
Yes, good points, relatively speaking. But an intellectual position that there is no free will is similar to a true Christian believer's absolute trust in God .. just without the God part. The precipice is about insight, and at the precipice .. what are we standing on? The void, which is one step away, is a free fall. Even the intellect can get a shadow of this: neither destiny nor free will is the case. Albert Low, a Zen master put it as "arouse the mind, without resting it anywhere". So much about one’s spiritual journey can be pleasure full, especially the surrendering bit. That why I think I wrote about the snickers bar incident, it was the 1st thing that came to mind when I watched Sifty’s video. The ‘act’ of surrendering can be so pleasure full that you get addicted to the act, and keep consciously ‘doing it’. But at some point ALL must be let go of, including the letting go. In my own journey it was all about enlightenment, I had an insatiable curiosity and wanted to ‘know’ what all the Buddhas knew, I wanted to experience the same things and plumb the depth and breath of our existence. For decades I practiced nearly every kind of meditation and exploration technique possible. Including the practice of surrendering, and I had many many keen insights and even cosmic experiences that in aggregate helped evolve me into a more functional, more chill, more patient and compassionate and capable human being. But it wasn’t until one day I had the realization that nothing anywhere is true, even perceived universal truths are subjective to the observer, so no truth can or should be trusted implicitly. With that I realized that my decades long search to KNOW the TRUTH was utterly pointless. With that realization I literally kind of ‘pop’d’ into aware oblivion, and stay that way for about 3 days. After that my hungry search was over, and I lost all interest in this ‘spiritual stuff’ that had absorbed my life for decades, and I became much more interested in just living my life as is. There are a thousand paths, millions, trillions of paths to arrive there, but no matter the path of the individual, no matter the goal or the practice, it all has to be let go off to enter completely into that effervescent aware living void. In my experience you cannot actively consciously choose when where and how that last letting go happens, when the time and conditions are right, you just sort of ‘pop’. Like a soap bubble floating on the breeze. You need to give up giving up all truths. Even the notion that you can't make it happen. I like Cadbury bars. The ones with roasted almonds. Someone at my preferred store buys them all when they come in. I'm hunting him or her. |
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Post by steven on Oct 19, 2023 13:46:47 GMT -5
So much about one’s spiritual journey can be pleasure full, especially the surrendering bit. That why I think I wrote about the snickers bar incident, it was the 1st thing that came to mind when I watched Sifty’s video. The ‘act’ of surrendering can be so pleasure full that you get addicted to the act, and keep consciously ‘doing it’. But at some point ALL must be let go of, including the letting go. In my own journey it was all about enlightenment, I had an insatiable curiosity and wanted to ‘know’ what all the Buddhas knew, I wanted to experience the same things and plumb the depth and breath of our existence. For decades I practiced nearly every kind of meditation and exploration technique possible. Including the practice of surrendering, and I had many many keen insights and even cosmic experiences that in aggregate helped evolve me into a more functional, more chill, more patient and compassionate and capable human being. But it wasn’t until one day I had the realization that nothing anywhere is true, even perceived universal truths are subjective to the observer, so no truth can or should be trusted implicitly. With that I realized that my decades long search to KNOW the TRUTH was utterly pointless. With that realization I literally kind of ‘pop’d’ into aware oblivion, and stay that way for about 3 days. After that my hungry search was over, and I lost all interest in this ‘spiritual stuff’ that had absorbed my life for decades, and I became much more interested in just living my life as is. There are a thousand paths, millions, trillions of paths to arrive there, but no matter the path of the individual, no matter the goal or the practice, it all has to be let go off to enter completely into that effervescent aware living void. In my experience you cannot actively consciously choose when where and how that last letting go happens, when the time and conditions are right, you just sort of ‘pop’. Like a soap bubble floating on the breeze. You need to give up giving up all truths. Even the notion that you can't make it happen. I like Cadbury bars. The ones with roasted almonds. Someone at my preferred store buys them all when they come in. I'm hunting him or her. 😂😂😂 |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2023 23:10:40 GMT -5
The biggest obstacle to this is the notion of free-will, the notion that we can choose what to do next. Try scrapping that and see what happens. Hard to do. Good to have you around Sifty. You cannot scrap the notion of free will by using free will to scrap it. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2023 23:13:21 GMT -5
The biggest obstacle to this is the notion of free-will, the notion that we can choose what to do next. Try scrapping that and see what happens. Hard to do. Good to have you around Sifty. The only solution is to focus the so-called free will on letting go -- of everything but the act of letting go. By practicing the art of deliberately grasping at all times the act of non-grasping, we discover in the end that this was no practice at all  . And thanks, Z, right back atcha. I thought you understood what self inquiry is which is not letting go. Quite the opposite in fact. It is attending to something, not letting go of something, but it is the attending to something that makes it go. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Oct 19, 2023 23:30:15 GMT -5
The only solution is to focus the so-called free will on letting go -- of everything but the act of letting go. By practicing the art of deliberately grasping at all times the act of non-grasping, we discover in the end that this was no practice at all . And thanks, Z, right back atcha. I thought you understood what self inquiry is which is not letting go. Quite the opposite in fact. It is attending to something, not letting go of something, but it is the attending to something that makes it go. First, self-inquiry is not quite the same thing as surrender, though they are intimately related. Second, surrender is attending -- but not to something in particular -- but rather to the recovery of attention from other things. That's what focusing on letting go means. This creates a process of discernment, as one necessarily has to inquire as to what are the things that attention is holding on to and that therefore have to be let go of. It also makes surrender in this sense a kind of negative or mirror image of inquiry. Third, self-inquiry too by the same token of discerning the I also entails letting go of everything that isn't that (making it turn the mirror of surrender). |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2023 23:38:32 GMT -5
I thought you understood what self inquiry is which is not letting go. Quite the opposite in fact. It is attending to something, not letting go of something, but it is the attending to something that makes it go. First, self-inquiry is not quite the same thing as surrender, though they are intimately related. Second, surrender is attending -- but not to something in particular -- but rather to the recovery of attention from other things. That's what focusing on letting go means. This creates a process of discernment, as one necessarily has to inquire as to what are the things that attention is holding on to and that therefore have to be let go of. It also makes surrender in this sense a kind of negative or mirror image of inquiry. Third, self-inquiry too by the same token of discerning the I also entails letting go of everything that isn't that (making it turn the mirror of surrender). Self inquiry is attending to the I or I am experience. It is that attentiveness which causes it to disappear, which is surrender. The letting go of the I principle is as a direct result of attending to it. You cannot focus on letting go. How would that work? You need an object and its most pristine form is I. The I or ahankara is normally attached to a third party experience such as I am hungry, I am happy, I am walking. When you remove it and attend to I alone this I which is the root of egoity cannot sustain itself and it dissolves. It is that dissolution which is surrender or letting go, but one thing is for sure you cannot try to let go. What does that even mean? |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Oct 20, 2023 0:22:23 GMT -5
First, self-inquiry is not quite the same thing as surrender, though they are intimately related. Second, surrender is attending -- but not to something in particular -- but rather to the recovery of attention from other things. That's what focusing on letting go means. This creates a process of discernment, as one necessarily has to inquire as to what are the things that attention is holding on to and that therefore have to be let go of. It also makes surrender in this sense a kind of negative or mirror image of inquiry. Third, self-inquiry too by the same token of discerning the I also entails letting go of everything that isn't that (making it turn the mirror of surrender). Self inquiry is attending to the I or I am experience. It is that attentiveness which causes it to disappear, which is surrender. The letting go of the I principle is as a direct result of attending to it. You cannot focus on letting go. How would that work? You need an object and its most pristine form is I. The I or ahankara is normally attached to a third party experience such as I am hungry, I am happy, I am walking. When you remove it and attend to I alone this I which is the root of egoity cannot sustain itself and it dissolves. It is that dissolution which is surrender or letting go, but one thing is for sure you cannot try to let go. What does that even mean? What it means is that you vigilantly watch your experience and prevent your attention from being engrossed into anything particular (i.e. in some sense ignore them, without requiring that they literally leave the mind), continuously withdrawing your attention from all particular experiences as they occur. It also means, and this is implied by the last sentence, that you refrain from exerting willpower onto anything except this very practice of watching-and-ignoring-and-relaxing. When one practices surrender in this way, the mind is led to continuously discern more and more subtle components of experience that were previously overlooked -- and to ignore them too. This process generates a peace that weakens other attachments and that eventuates (when Grace wills it) into a final discernment that leads to realization. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2023 0:42:03 GMT -5
Self inquiry is attending to the I or I am experience. It is that attentiveness which causes it to disappear, which is surrender. The letting go of the I principle is as a direct result of attending to it. You cannot focus on letting go. How would that work? You need an object and its most pristine form is I. The I or ahankara is normally attached to a third party experience such as I am hungry, I am happy, I am walking. When you remove it and attend to I alone this I which is the root of egoity cannot sustain itself and it dissolves. It is that dissolution which is surrender or letting go, but one thing is for sure you cannot try to let go. What does that even mean? What it means is that you vigilantly watch your experience and prevent your attention from being engrossed into anything particular (i.e. in some sense ignore them, without requiring that they literally leave the mind), continuously withdrawing your attention from all particular experiences as they occur. It also means, and this is implied by the last sentence, that you refrain from exerting willpower onto anything except this very practice of watching-and-ignoring-and-relaxing. When one practices surrender in this way, the mind is led to continuously discern more and more subtle components of experience that were previously overlooked -- and to ignore them too. This process generates a peace that weakens other attachments and that eventuates (when Grace wills it) into a final discernment that leads to realization. When I disappears then the world disappears along with all the experiences of world. Why attend to these innumerable experiences when you can deal with all by subduing I? You might say yes maybe when sitting with the eyes closed, but what about when you're active in the world? The same applies by turning the attention inwards to the source rather than trying to lose interest in what your senses are showing you. There is a difference and it's a significant one. Examine this carefully. If an experiences arises and you decide to ignore it how does that actually work? You cannot ignore what is placed in front of you as far as the senses are concerned. You are captured by your experiences. Doesn't it seem to you far easier to specifically attend to the source of that which appears in experience. Instead of trying to subdue what I is experiencing. Just find out who am I that is experiencing and then you will subdue everything with one fell swoop. Take the axe to egoity and quite automatically you will be withdrawing from the senses instead of trying to withdraw from every sensory impression you experience. Surely this must make sense to you. Turning back to the source is not the same as rejecting the world although by turning back to the source the world automatically disappears. Big difference! |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Oct 20, 2023 0:55:38 GMT -5
What it means is that you vigilantly watch your experience and prevent your attention from being engrossed into anything particular (i.e. in some sense ignore them, without requiring that they literally leave the mind), continuously withdrawing your attention from all particular experiences as they occur. It also means, and this is implied by the last sentence, that you refrain from exerting willpower onto anything except this very practice of watching-and-ignoring-and-relaxing. When one practices surrender in this way, the mind is led to continuously discern more and more subtle components of experience that were previously overlooked -- and to ignore them too. This process generates a peace that weakens other attachments and that eventuates (when Grace wills it) into a final discernment that leads to realization. When I disappears then the world disappears along with all the experiences of world. Why attend to these innumerable experiences when you can deal with all by subduing I? You might say yes maybe when sitting with the eyes closed, but what about when you're active in the world? Surrender as a practice is learning to ignore the world, and is perfectly compatible with "being in it" eyes wide open. You can ignore a TV even when it's on. It can be there in the background, but you needn't be entranced by it, and you needn't respond to it as if it were reality. When you think you've ignored the TV, then you realize that where your attention remains now is in fact another TV. You ignore that too. And repeat. Both methods work equally well, and depend on the temperament of the seeker. In fact both are, as I said earlier, mirror images of each other. When you practice inquiry, you learn to ignore the world. Why is this? When you hunt the I, you automatically turn your attention away from the other objects. Meanwhile, in surrender, when you ignore the world, you are withdrawing attention from it. When you withdraw attention from the objects, just where is it that you think the attention goes? Despite their being so related, the techniques suit seekers of different temperaments, or, indeed, the same seeker at different times. Inquiry has the flavor of curiosity, and surrender has the flavor of relief from pain and burden. |
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Post by lolly on Oct 20, 2023 1:09:00 GMT -5
Robert Sapolsky's book. I read a headline about it. He's a neuroscientist who argues free will is an illusion. Makes things so much easier. Given the same circumstances, we're all likely to be Hamas or the IDF. Kind of undoes the anger and hatred. I like it. No interest in reading the book though. You know there's a lot of shit we ignore. Tigray, CAR, Myanmar, South Sudan. Violence and war, slaughter somewhere at any given moment. We focus on Ukraine and Israel, why? I think I know why. It doesn't matter. It's not my focus. "First take the plank out of your eye." He just did a podcast with Lawrence Krauss. Worth a look. |
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. And thanks, Z, right back atcha.