|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 21, 2024 17:00:31 GMT -5
I'm really okay with the idea that I have beliefs (or that there are beliefs being stored in my consciousness/brain etc). It makes sense to me. I believe that our beliefs create our reality, so the floor that I am apparently walking on, is ultimately a product of belief, and I believe the floor will support me, and I won't tumble through it, spinning into a vortex of eternal space lol. But, there's a difference between having beliefs, and experiencing beliefs. And I think that what the folks you are talking to here are saying is that they don't 'experience' belief. I don't really experience 'beliefs' much either. I think I might be right in saying that the experience of a belief comes with an experience of projecting ourselves into the future or past, and in contrast, when we are experiencing ourselves as present...or presence....in the moment, there's no experience of belief. When you are meditating, are you experiencing belief? (Again, I understand that there are beliefs there somewhere). But even when you think that "you are in the moment" you actually experience that as a belief, don't you? This is because you can't be in the moment for any amount of time: that moment instantly became past and you just recall it. Then when you get out of meditating, you recall an experience. There is no way to know that you really had it, or you made it up, or it was somehow implanted, dreamed, imagined, whatever word illustrates it better for you. Not experiencing beliefs is just an assessment, honest maybe, but it doesn't make it truth. Have you ever been punched in the face? No, you haven't, or you couldn't write this.
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jan 21, 2024 17:04:15 GMT -5
But even when you think that "you are in the moment" you actually experience that as a belief, don't you? This is because you can't be in the moment for any amount of time: that moment instantly became past and you just recall it. Then when you get out of meditating, you recall an experience. There is no way to know that you really had it, or you made it up, or it was somehow implanted, dreamed, imagined, whatever word illustrates it better for you. Not experiencing beliefs is just an assessment, honest maybe, but it doesn't make it truth. Have you ever been punched in the face? No, you haven't, or you couldn't write this. lol I have. Maybe that does explain some things!
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 17:10:07 GMT -5
But even when you think that "you are in the moment" you actually experience that as a belief, don't you? This is because you can't be in the moment for any amount of time: that moment instantly became past and you just recall it. Then when you get out of meditating, you recall an experience. There is no way to know that you really had it, or you made it up, or it was somehow implanted, dreamed, imagined, whatever word illustrates it better for you. Not experiencing beliefs is just an assessment, honest maybe, but it doesn't make it truth. Have you ever been punched in the face? No, you haven't, or you couldn't write this. That isn't an argument for anything. I have never been punched in the face. EDIT: I experience what I believe. Believing isn't denying something. For reference, see the definition I posted earlier today. link
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 21, 2024 17:14:01 GMT -5
Have you ever been punched in the face? No, you haven't, or you couldn't write this. That isn't an argument for anything. I have never been punched in the face. I rest my case.
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 17:40:49 GMT -5
Have you ever been punched in the face? No, you haven't, or you couldn't write this. lol I have. Maybe that does explain some things! It goes both ways ... You believe that you've been punched in the face. It isn't a truth. It is your recollection. Your past is created from the present to match your current beliefs and needs of evolvement. Your past is only yours; and for you it is "the" past. In the Niz vs. the painter q&a, among other good insights. link- You imagine that the picture must come from the painter who actually painted it. All the time you look for origins and causes. Causality is in the mind, only; memory gives the illusion of continuity and repetitiveness creates the idea of causality.
- V: Is ' I Am' and 'There is' the same thing?
M:" ' I Am' denotes the inner, 'there is'- the outer. Both are based on the sense of being. " V: Is it the same as the experience of existence? M:" To exist, means to be something, a thing, a feeling, a thought, an idea. All existence is particular. Only Being, is universal, in the sense that every being is compatible with every other being. Existences clash, Being -never.
- V: I can see that my world is subjective. Does it make it also illusory?
M:" It is illusory as long as it is subjective and to that extent only. Reality lies in objectivity. " V: What does objectivity mean? You said that the world is subjective and now you talk of objectivity. Is not everything subjective? M:" Everything is subjective, but the real is objective. " V: In what sense? M:" It does not depend on memories and expectations, desires, and fears, likes and dislikes. All is seen as it is."
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 17:44:22 GMT -5
That isn't an argument for anything. I have never been punched in the face. EDIT: I experience what I believe. Believing isn't denying something. For reference, see the definition I posted earlier today. link I rest my case. You may rest it, but you haven't made any point, excepting that your view of reality is different than mine.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 21, 2024 18:02:30 GMT -5
You may rest it, but you haven't made any point, excepting that your view of reality is different than mine. You really do need to do something to ~get out of your head~. Have you not ever tried to ~meditate~? Take two minutes, right now. The simplest thing, just watch your breath. Sit, relaxed, breath in your nose, out your mouth. Sense the air coming in your nose, sense the air coming out your mouth. You can change it up, sense your chest rise-lungs fill as you breath in, chest sink-lungs empty, as you exhale. ~~~~~~` You will not get 3 seconds until a word-thought comes up, but just go back to sensing your breath. Try for two minutes, you will not get past 4 seconds without a thought entering your mind. Try it five minutes, you will not get past five seconds, merely sensing your breath. Five minutes is enough at one time. And while you are doing this, you don't know you have a left foot, you don't experience your left foot. Throughout your day, you never know you have a left foot. Because you live in your head. Just try it. Another thing you can try, try threading a needle.
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jan 21, 2024 18:16:42 GMT -5
lol I have. Maybe that does explain some things! It goes both ways ... You believe that you've been punched in the face. It isn't a truth. It is your recollection. Your past is created from the present to match your current beliefs and needs of evolvement. Your past is only yours; and for you it is "the" past. I see this differently. I believe that, as a group of souls, we have incarnated at this time to create and experience a particular format/template, that comes with certain rules. And one of those rules is linearity. So while, in the broadest sense, I agree with you that this linearity isn't happening, we create the very real impression that it is. And we create consistency to go with that. Hence why, we all share the same memories of the past. We all share a memory of 9-11 occurring on the same day. I am not solipsist, so I don't believe that I am creating your memory of that. A bit like a Dungeons and Dragons game. We each take on roles and play a game, agreeing to certain rules. Linearity is one of those rules. If and when we shift into a higher dimension experience, then we would agree to experience time differently. It's hard for me to imagine what that would be like, but it would be more quantum rather than linear. So within the context of this game, in which we agreed to experience linearity, I'd say it is contextually true that I was punched in the face. It's also contextually true that your mother gave birth to you, and that your body evolved along a pretty standard ageing line. You were an infant, a child, a teenager, a young adult, an adult etc....That's not JUST your memory in this moment making up that process of ageing, that process was part of the template/format of this reality that we have all agreed to experience.
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 18:27:39 GMT -5
You may rest it, but you haven't made any point, excepting that your view of reality is different than mine. You really do need to do something to ~get out of your head~. Have you not ever tried to ~meditate~? Take two minutes, right now. The simplest thing, just watch your breath. Sit, relaxed, breath in your nose, out your mouth. Sense the air coming in your nose, sense the air coming out your mouth. You can change it up, sense your chest rise-lungs fill as you breath in, chest sink-lungs empty, as you exhale. ~~~~~~` You will not get 3 seconds until a word-thought comes up, but just go back to sensing your breath. Try for two minutes, you will not get past 4 seconds without a thought entering your mind. Try it five minutes, you will not get past five seconds, merely sensing your breath. Five minutes is enough at one time. And while you are doing this, you don't know you have a left foot, you don't experience your left foot. Throughout your day, you never know you have a left foot. Because you live in your head. Just try it. Another thing you can try, try threading a needle. Now you're getting ridiculous. You feel it but can't resist the temptation. That's how suffering gets going. EDIT: You don't even understand what you recommendation is supposed to do. It is a means to get a good contact with your subconscious, in order to get your reference back into your mind, where it is supposed to be, and it was before you got conditioned.
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 18:37:59 GMT -5
It goes both ways ... You believe that you've been punched in the face. It isn't a truth. It is your recollection. Your past is created from the present to match your current beliefs and needs of evolvement. Your past is only yours; and for you it is "the" past. I see this differently. I believe that, as a group of souls, we have incarnated at this time to create and experience a particular format/template, that comes with certain rules. And one of those rules is linearity. So while, in the broadest sense, I agree with you that this linearity isn't happening, we create the very real impression that it is. And we create consistency to go with that. Hence why, we all share the same memories of the past. We all share a memory of 9-11 occurring on the same day. I am not solipsist, so I don't believe that I am creating your memory of that. A bit like a Dungeons and Dragons game. We each take on roles and play a game, agreeing to certain rules. Linearity is one of those rules. If and when we shift into a higher dimension experience, then we would agree to experience time differently. It's hard for me to imagine what that would be like, but it would be more quantum rather than linear. So within the context of this game, in which we agreed to experience linearity, I'd say it is contextually true that I was punched in the face. I respect your right to your opinion, and I actually perceive it as my interpretation of an event, created by my subconscious for my benefit: a lesson and a guidance. It isn't solipsism, at all, as a newborn, a preschooler, a student, ... who would recognize their limited level of comprehension, aren't solipsists. It is what the Delphic maxims point to: know what you are; don't exceed it; if you do then there's suffering.
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jan 21, 2024 18:47:13 GMT -5
I see this differently. I believe that, as a group of souls, we have incarnated at this time to create and experience a particular format/template, that comes with certain rules. And one of those rules is linearity. So while, in the broadest sense, I agree with you that this linearity isn't happening, we create the very real impression that it is. And we create consistency to go with that. Hence why, we all share the same memories of the past. We all share a memory of 9-11 occurring on the same day. I am not solipsist, so I don't believe that I am creating your memory of that. A bit like a Dungeons and Dragons game. We each take on roles and play a game, agreeing to certain rules. Linearity is one of those rules. If and when we shift into a higher dimension experience, then we would agree to experience time differently. It's hard for me to imagine what that would be like, but it would be more quantum rather than linear. So within the context of this game, in which we agreed to experience linearity, I'd say it is contextually true that I was punched in the face. I respect your right to your opinion, and I actually perceive it as my interpretation of an event, created by my subconscious for my benefit: a lesson and a guidance. It isn't solipsism, at all, as a newborn, a preschooler, a student, ... who would recognize their limited level of comprehension, aren't solipsists. It is what the Delphic maxims point to: know what you are; don't exceed it; if you do then there's suffering. To clarify, solipsism in this case would be, 'I am responsible for the memory that you are experiencing'. For me, that would be an overly simplistic way of explaining why you are experiencing the memory that you are experiencing. If you don't believe in linearity, why do you trust your memory at all? It seems to me that trust in memory assumes 'likelihood', and likelihood is only possible, if linearity is believed to be the case. If we hadn't agreed to experience linearity, why do we even have memory?
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 21, 2024 19:09:26 GMT -5
You really do need to do something to ~get out of your head~. Have you not ever tried to ~meditate~? Take two minutes, right now. The simplest thing, just watch your breath. Sit, relaxed, breath in your nose, out your mouth. Sense the air coming in your nose, sense the air coming out your mouth. You can change it up, sense your chest rise-lungs fill as you breath in, chest sink-lungs empty, as you exhale. ~~~~~~` You will not get 3 seconds until a word-thought comes up, but just go back to sensing your breath. Try for two minutes, you will not get past 4 seconds without a thought entering your mind. Try it five minutes, you will not get past five seconds, merely sensing your breath. Five minutes is enough at one time. And while you are doing this, you don't know you have a left foot, you don't experience your left foot. Throughout your day, you never know you have a left foot. Because you live in your head. Just try it. Another thing you can try, try threading a needle. Now you're getting ridiculous. You feel it but can't resist the temptation. That's how suffering gets going. EDIT: You don't even understand what you recommendation is supposed to do. It is a means to get a good contact with your subconscious, in order to get your reference back into your mind, where it is supposed to be, and it was before you got conditioned. The discussion was about being in the present moment. You said it's impossible to experience the present moment. I asked if you had ever gotten punched in the face, said I doubted it. You confirmed you had never been punched in the face. So, I suggested other ways to experience the present moment. Nothing ridiculous here. It's OK if you don't wish to experience the present moment. About 98% of people on the planet live either in the past or the future, never here, never now. No, I need to change that, plenty of people go to bed hungry every night. I mean actually hungry. Hunger is present-moment. This is a short cut to your suggestions. Once you understand the principle, no conceptualization whatsoever is necessary.
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 19:22:37 GMT -5
Now you're getting ridiculous. You feel it but can't resist the temptation. That's how suffering gets going. EDIT: You don't even understand what you recommendation is supposed to do. It is a means to get a good contact with your subconscious, in order to get your reference back into your mind, where it is supposed to be, and it was before you got conditioned. The discussion was about being in the present moment. You said it's impossible to experience the present moment. I asked if you had ever gotten punched in the face, said I doubted it. You confirmed you had never been punched in the face. So, I suggested other ways to experience the present moment. Nothing ridiculous here. It's OK if you don't wish to experience the present moment. About 98% of people on the planet live either in the past or the future, never here, never now. No, I need to change that, plenty of people go to bed hungry every night. I mean actually hungry. Hunger is present-moment. This is a short cut to your suggestions. Once you understand the principle, no conceptualization whatsoever is necessary. I disagree. I'll cut this here.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 21, 2024 19:35:59 GMT -5
The discussion was about being in the present moment. You said it's impossible to experience the present moment. I asked if you had ever gotten punched in the face, said I doubted it. You confirmed you had never been punched in the face. So, I suggested other ways to experience the present moment. Nothing ridiculous here. It's OK if you don't wish to experience the present moment. About 98% of people on the planet live either in the past or the future, never here, never now. No, I need to change that, plenty of people go to bed hungry every night. I mean actually hungry. Hunger is present-moment. This is a short cut to your suggestions. Once you understand the principle, no conceptualization whatsoever is necessary. I disagree. I'll cut this here. I came back to edit. Look up the word kyosaku. It's function and purpose is to put one in the present moment.
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jan 21, 2024 19:56:43 GMT -5
I see this differently. I believe that, as a group of souls, we have incarnated at this time to create and experience a particular format/template, that comes with certain rules. And one of those rules is linearity. So while, in the broadest sense, I agree with you that this linearity isn't happening, we create the very real impression that it is. And we create consistency to go with that. Hence why, we all share the same memories of the past. We all share a memory of 9-11 occurring on the same day. I am not solipsist, so I don't believe that I am creating your memory of that. A bit like a Dungeons and Dragons game. We each take on roles and play a game, agreeing to certain rules. Linearity is one of those rules. If and when we shift into a higher dimension experience, then we would agree to experience time differently. It's hard for me to imagine what that would be like, but it would be more quantum rather than linear. So within the context of this game, in which we agreed to experience linearity, I'd say it is contextually true that I was punched in the face. I respect your right to your opinion, and I actually perceive it as my interpretation of an event, created by my subconscious for my benefit: a lesson and a guidance. It isn't solipsism, at all, as a newborn, a preschooler, a student, ... who would recognize their limited level of comprehension, aren't solipsists. It is what the Delphic maxims point to: know what you are; don't exceed it; if you do then there's suffering. A slightly different way of explaining my view. You believe that we are here to learn, like in a 'school' right? Well, to go with that analogy, I'm suggesting that your 'level or 'grade' of learning comes with certain rules, and it's those rules that enable you to learn and grow in the ways that you are interested in. In a sense, your 'classroom' is the template/format that I mentioned, and linearity would be part of that template/format. And it sounds like you have probably learned a tremendous amount, and perhaps your learnings are actually more reflective of a class above you. But the format of your classroom remains unchanged. For example, the politicians of our world remain incompetent lol. So I'm speculating that to some extent, the application of those learnings doesn't wholly apply to your current classroom.
|
|