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Post by andrew on Oct 11, 2023 17:17:46 GMT -5
Our view of reality doesn't change reality. It doesn't work that way. IOW, ontology always trumps epistemology. Our view of reality changes our view of reality, a window is merely a window. The two are vastly different. Call me back when you're between a rock and a hard place, or in one of laughter's double-binds. I have to say: your reply rubs me wrong. So, my response will be to ignore it. I can see why that could rub you wrong. SDP has direct experience of a 'dark night of the soul', and I surmise that intrinsic to any 'dark night', there is a sense of choicelessness to it. I am reminded of a guy called Jeff Foster...who is known in non-dual circles. Recently had Lyme disease and documented it. It left him begging to God for mercy. He's on the mend now. One thing I can say with sureness, is that in these moments of begging, all belief goes out of the window. Every scrap of spiritual ideology. And I think there's value in that for most folks that experience it, as awful as it is in the moment. To be clear, I absolutely do not wish that for you or anyone! I have learned that people have their own unique spiritual paths with their own lessons...some suffer, some don't. I have come to appreciate that diversity. And for those that do suffer, I wish for them to speedily move through it.
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Post by laughter on Oct 11, 2023 17:23:09 GMT -5
So, my response will be to ignore it.
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Post by inavalan on Oct 11, 2023 19:21:20 GMT -5
The "actor" analogy is less fitting than others, in my opinion. I was actually wondering if method actors who immerse in their roles by identifying with their characters, and who feel strongly their characters' emotions, bring to some degree the effect of those emotions into their off stage lives, when they don't take steps to intentionally shake them off. I believe that you have to play your role here, but consciously and as guided, and not to get taken over by the tole itself. You perceive and make choices, you respond, but applying the lessons that you learned at inner-level. You practice, and get tested. The difference may come from the fact that you believe that some come here to play negative roles on purpose, or to experience negative feelings and situations on purpose, which I don't believe to be the case. Negative emotions are meant to be interpreted and addressed, and the earlier the better, as untended negative emotions will always escalate. I don't believe in random or themed experiences that cause suffering, pain, brutality, ... Yes, that sounds like it could be the difference, in a nutshell. Though I do believe that, at this time, there are unprecedented numbers of 'souls' here to learn the higher lessons that you speak of i.e conscious creation, sovereignty etc Given that, throughout human history, the vast majority have NOT learned those lessons, do you basically see it as mass ongoing failure? Why is this failure happening in your view? I see this as only one of the endless versions of physical reality that continuously unfold, with about the same avatars, but different players. Not all the current players of this version experienced the same past, not all of them experience exactly the same present, not all of them will experience the same future. There is no unique history, no unique present, no unique future.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 11, 2023 19:22:36 GMT -5
Our view of reality doesn't change reality. It doesn't work that way. IOW, ontology always trumps epistemology. Our view of reality changes our view of reality, a window is merely a window. The two are vastly different. Call me back when you're between a rock and a hard place, or in one of laughter's double-binds. I have to say: your reply rubs me wrong. So, my response will be to ignore it. Oh? You can't blame me, you did your own rubbing. (Is that not how it works?) No problem.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 11, 2023 19:26:52 GMT -5
I have to say: your reply rubs me wrong. So, my response will be to ignore it. I can see why that could rub you wrong. SDP has direct experience of a 'dark night of the soul', and I surmise that intrinsic to any 'dark night', there is a sense of choicelessness to it. I am reminded of a guy called Jeff Foster...who is known in non-dual circles. Recently had Lyme disease and documented it. It left him begging to God for mercy. He's on the mend now. One thing I can say with sureness, is that in these moments of begging, all belief goes out of the window. Every scrap of spiritual ideology. And I think there's value in that for most folks that experience it, as awful as it is in the moment. To be clear, I absolutely do not wish that for you or anyone! I have learned that people have their own unique spiritual paths with their own lessons...some suffer, some don't. I have come to appreciate that diversity. And for those that do suffer, I wish for them to speedily move through it. I need to start my thread, then I'll be on everybody's ____ list.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 11, 2023 19:28:49 GMT -5
Yes, that sounds like it could be the difference, in a nutshell. Though I do believe that, at this time, there are unprecedented numbers of 'souls' here to learn the higher lessons that you speak of i.e conscious creation, sovereignty etc Given that, throughout human history, the vast majority have NOT learned those lessons, do you basically see it as mass ongoing failure? Why is this failure happening in your view? I see this as only one of the endless versions of physical reality that continuously unfold, with about the same avatars, but different players. Not all the current players of this version experienced the same past, not all of them experience exactly the same present, not all of them will experience the same future. There is no unique history, no unique present, no unique future. I'm only interested in one version, mine.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 11, 2023 19:33:31 GMT -5
Maybe this analogy will clarify how I see it... Let's say someone is in a play, on stage. And in that play, they are asked to forgive, or feel imposed upon, or whatever. It's not 'real'. because they are acting. And yet a good actor will connect to the role and genuinely experience those things, even though it's not real. And that's kind of how I see the human reality. It's a play...and in a sense, it's a lie - you are right, there's nothing to forgive and no imposition. And yet, playing this human role might still engender finding forgiveness, and it being useful, from within the story. And it might engender feeling imposed upon too. We can't avoid it IF those are the themes of the play, and that is our role in the story. The "actor" analogy is less fitting than others, in my opinion. I was actually wondering if method actors who immerse in their roles by identifying with their characters, and who feel strongly their characters' emotions, bring to some degree the effect of those emotions into their off stage lives, when they don't take steps to intentionally shake them off. I believe that you have to play your role here, but consciously and as guided, and not to get taken over by the tole itself. You perceive and make choices, you respond, but applying the lessons that you learned at inner-level. You practice, and get tested. The difference may come from the fact that you believe that some come here to play negative roles on purpose, or to experience negative feelings and situations on purpose, which I don't believe to be the case. Negative emotions are meant to be interpreted and addressed, and the earlier the better, as untended negative emotions will always escalate.I don't believe in random or themed experiences that cause suffering, pain, brutality, ... True, very true.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 11, 2023 19:38:21 GMT -5
I have to say: your reply rubs me wrong. So, my response will be to ignore it. This is an example of negative emotions which, untended, escalated. At some point, replying and not being understood started to become annoying and frustrating. I was aware of it, but I kept replying and ignoring it, from the wrong motivation of attempting to make myself understood, and why-not, to even offer a better path to another. As expected, this escalated into receiving a reply that caused a more negative emotion. So, it isn't his fault for that. It is mine. I could've avoided it (not necessarily by ignoring), but I was pressed a little by other obligations, and negligently let this follow its course. It wasn't random; it wasn't inflicted on me; it wasn't an intended experience, nor a planned one. But, it is a refresh lesson, and I'll take this from it. Cool. Now, when you see you could not have done otherwise, that'll be progress.
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Post by andrew on Oct 11, 2023 19:50:51 GMT -5
Yes, that sounds like it could be the difference, in a nutshell. Though I do believe that, at this time, there are unprecedented numbers of 'souls' here to learn the higher lessons that you speak of i.e conscious creation, sovereignty etc Given that, throughout human history, the vast majority have NOT learned those lessons, do you basically see it as mass ongoing failure? Why is this failure happening in your view? I see this as only one of the endless versions of physical reality that continuously unfold, with about the same avatars, but different players. Not all the current players of this version experienced the same past, not all of them experience exactly the same present, not all of them will experience the same future. There is no unique history, no unique present, no unique future. So...could we agree that there is currently conflict between Palestine and Israel? If so, why have those millions of people been failing to learn their higher lessons?
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Post by inavalan on Oct 11, 2023 21:43:17 GMT -5
I see this as only one of the endless versions of physical reality that continuously unfold, with about the same avatars, but different players. Not all the current players of this version experienced the same past, not all of them experience exactly the same present, not all of them will experience the same future. There is no unique history, no unique present, no unique future. So...could we agree that there is currently conflict between Palestine and Israel? If so, why have those millions of people been failing to learn their higher lessons? Those individuals who learn will experience sooner more satisfying realities than those who don't. People are at different levels, as students in a school. You could expose a first grader to material for the fourth grade, but the first grader wouldn't be able to learn anything from it. From the latter, the smarter ones'll realize the disconnect, but the majority will behave ridiculously, and painfully for themselves. You can see this all around ourselves, on this board, among the people you interface with in person, you can see this in the media, and in the told history. Even when a lesson is over your head, you could still get something useful from it with a proper attitude. Everybody can hurt only himself, and even that is only in a nightmare.
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Post by andrew on Oct 11, 2023 22:08:09 GMT -5
So...could we agree that there is currently conflict between Palestine and Israel? If so, why have those millions of people been failing to learn their higher lessons? Those individuals who learn will experience sooner more satisfying realities than those who don't. People are at different levels, as students in a school. You could expose a first grader to material for the fourth grade, but the first grader wouldn't be able to learn anything from it. From the latter, the smarter ones'll realize the disconnect, but the majority will behave ridiculously, and painfully for themselves. You can see this all around ourselves, on this board, among the people you interface with in person, you can see this in the media, and in the told history. Even when a lesson is over your head, you could still get something useful from it with a proper attitude. Everybody can hurt only himself, and even that is only in a nightmare. Thanks. This is pretty close to what I mean by 'themes/explorations'.....what you call a 'first grader' will explore different themes to a fourth grader. I differ in that I believe that sometimes just having the experience is enough i.e a week old baby isn't going to consciously learn something profound from an experience, though the experience is still 'learned from' at another level e.g higher self, inner being, unconscious mind, oversoul....I'm not too particular about the labels.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 12, 2023 0:50:31 GMT -5
I came here just now to start another thread, checked my notifications. At some point LOA breaks down, just breaks, period. Nonsense. Of course it can be explained using LOA. It's just a matter of right context. You approach it from the wrong context. Your context is too small and you also hold some erroneous beliefs about creation in general as well as the nature of reality. What's breaking down at some point is your own incoherent hotchpotch of ideas.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 12, 2023 0:52:39 GMT -5
It does take some willpower and maybe even some discipline in the beginning to make that turn, to slow down the negative momentum, depending how far off your path you already are. But once you've made that turn, it's going to be easier and easier as momentum in the other direction is picking up until you reach a point where can't even remember anymore how that felt being off your path, in the ditch and brambling thru the bushes in the dark. You will look back at those times as if it was just a bad dream, as if it never actually happened. Here's a quote for you from Bronnie, I think you may like it... Yeah like that a lot, what's not to like! And I agree about willpower/momentum/discipline, though I come back to the point that folks are only ready, when they are ready...when the capacity is there, when the stars line up. On the flip side, that shouldn't be taken as a cop out, my view is that if you CAN choose, then choose! The crux of this goes back to age old discussions about choice vs choicelessness....I have sympathies with both sides of the coin, and a big part of my lesson in the last 10 years has been about allowing people to have their path/journey. There are some folks that simply cannot 'focus' in a positive way....until they can. It always seemed to me that folks are only ready when they feel that they've suffered enough. Until then, they can't hear what I have to say. Vewy weird!
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Post by Reefs on Oct 12, 2023 0:55:09 GMT -5
I came here just now to start another thread, checked my notifications. At some point LOA breaks down, just breaks, period. I think I've found the dividing line, to put it not-delicately, but succinctly. This gives me a little pause to consider how to do the thread. Announced about 25 minutes ago, they have found babies and toddlers decapitated by Hamas in Kfar Aza just outside of Gaza from the Saturday attack. Announced and verified about 25 minutes ago, about 11:30 AM ET. Every time in the past I found my ~view of how the universe works~ lacking, I continued my search. I don't know if your view is merely theoretical, or you have experientially verified it, I've put off asking. But I'd like to ask, does having babies heads cut off fit into your paradigm? There's controversy around this news item...the fog of war is confusing. That's not to say I believe it is false, or that I'd be surprised, but the source of this news items is Israel, so....right now, I think caution is sensible. However, I agree that LOA cannot adequately explain our reality...or the human experience, even if it is a universal principle. LOA is not meant to explain reality. LOA is meant to explain the process of creation.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 12, 2023 0:57:59 GMT -5
There's controversy around this news item...the fog of war is confusing. That's not to say I believe it is false, or that I'd be surprised, but the source of this news items is Israel, so....right now, I think caution is sensible. However, I agree that LOA cannot adequately explain our reality...or the human experience, even if it is a universal principle. It depends on what you interpret the LOA to mean. I don't use this term as part of my view of reality, but it points to elements of it. You can interpret reality only from your perspective, level of evolvement, beliefs, expectations, emotions. What you see isn't exactly what it is, but a materialization of an inner reality, and this materialization is only yours; it isn't identical with anybody else's. There is no objective reference. At inner level you use inner senses, so the events and experiences are multi-dimensional, and are something else than what you perceive physically. Nobody dies in terms of destruction and annihilation. When you wake up, or go to sleep you just change focus; same when being born, or dying. You are immersed, hypnotized in some of these states, part by choice, part by mistake. In any state your experience is determined only by your level of evolvement, beliefs, expectations, emotions. This is what LOA actually points to; not what most people believe to be. Nothing is imposed on you, nor from the physical world, nor from the inner world. Nobody to blame, nor to forgive, nor to put on a pedestal. Yes.
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