|
Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 5, 2023 7:33:45 GMT -5
I am of a different opinion. Hypnosis throws doubt on all sensual perception. If you can be hypnotized into looking for your shoe while holding it in your hand, or develop burns and blisters with no exposure to a burning agent, or forget your own name, or develop fears, likes and dislikes, and so on, then you obviously can't trust what you experience to be so. The intellectual understanding is based on the five senses perception, and it is distorted by your beliefs. You can't develop a higher order of knowledge intellectually. You need intuition. Reason and sense depend on the quality of the input data, and on the ability to reason. I think too that the Eastern ways are more conducive to approaching the truths, but I am not aware of any actual way that really accomplishes that. All use some kind of hypnosis on the followers, as all other religions, philosophies, practices do, leaving the seeker exposed to gurus and dogmas' suggestions, all of them based on distorted interpretations of individual experiences. I believe that the only way to remove some of the distortions is to intuitively interpret everything. EDIT: I see that you edited your post, and reformulated in a few places, but I don't think that it makes a difference to my reply. No different in edit. Just a bit tidier. I have no idea what intuition is, but my guess is it'll just go with preexisting bias. Lets say a guy is hypnotised and eats an onion believing it's an apple. He has no doubt, but everyone who see him knows it's an onion. If we reverse that to say everyone is hypnotised but the man eating, who sees it is an onion, then who's right and who's wrong?
It's easy to determine as we can test the molecules by how they react to other chemicals. The molecules will react in the way they do regardless of who perceives what. The scientist will say, despite all appearances, this is not an apple. He gets a reality check. We can think one thing with a high degree of certainty, and even have a consensus on it, but we turn out to be wrong. It even happened to me (but it was only that one time and it was a very long time ago) . From what I gathered in reading Inavalan, s/he's big into gestalt psychology, at least theoretically. It's a pretty cool model, based on the bit I understand about it. The basic structure of that school of thought seems to be based on an I-It duality. When looked at from an existential perspective, that theoretical fundamental could be applied to intuiting/resolving/realizing the split between I (as a separate self) and IT (existence ITself); whereas, a lot of the field of psychology is more aligned with creating a healthier sense of self. So yeah, it could offer a few insights into the dialectic here in the cyber-sanatorium. The duality it utilizes is similar to the Taoists' ying-yang, the Hindu's Shiva/Shakti, personal/impersonal, or mind-based conclusions versus realization, or whatevs. Preaching to the choir, we all know language is a dualistic tool used in contexts, so in a way, we are linguistically poking around on the edges of where and when mind's interpreted, limited contexts could collapse, giving rise to a more expanded awareness of infinite potential. Even then, mind is engaged thereafter to interact in the world, which is what gives rise to the need to work through the implications of (a/the) realization that seems to defy the mind's previous conceptualizations, cause-effect interpretations, ideas on locus of control, etc. Intuition, in how I use the word, has always referred to something that has one's experiential learning at play (including both -but not explicitly/structurally- theoretical ideas and concepts, as well as a sense of the interaction of various aspects of a given context) and a greater sense of the dynamics of change at play. Some of the intuitive interpretations may/may not play out in the immediate context. Afterall, how many times has one said, "I knew that was gonna happen!", and maybe we were off by a day-week-month, depending on the situation. So, perhaps intuition is more like a movement of mind that is more aware of and that allows some peripheral potentials to come into consideration. I have A LOT of memories of people giving me the look of "WTF are you on about, mate?" But the fact remains that once one starts to interact in the dualistic world of thought, contexts, and appearing existence, one is playing, wading out into, and swimming in some degree of uncertainty, where there is always a bit of doubt mixed in as things unfold. That's something of a gist of what I refer to as Truth Realization, which is same-same but different than SR, and neither of which is provable beyond the shadow of doubt to others. The idea of TR is what I've referred to as the re-write, when mind is being informed by IT/THAT which has been realized, while previous conditioned beliefs continue to arise and distort the view of a context and/or pull one's attention back into the personal/self-centric/ego-centric worldview. Even logically (with an intuition of the trans-rational), the I or the WE are conceptualizations appearing in mind. It's easy to fall back into the 'truth' of mind's conditioned dream, and that's natural. But, it's also nice to KNOW mind's 'truth' is neti neti...in Truth.
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 5, 2023 7:58:05 GMT -5
I am of a different opinion. Hypnosis throws doubt on all sensual perception. If you can be hypnotized into looking for your shoe while holding it in your hand, or develop burns and blisters with no exposure to a burning agent, or forget your own name, or develop fears, likes and dislikes, and so on, then you obviously can't trust what you experience to be so. The intellectual understanding is based on the five senses perception, and it is distorted by your beliefs. You can't develop a higher order of knowledge intellectually. You need intuition. Reason and sense depend on the quality of the input data, and on the ability to reason. I think too that the Eastern ways are more conducive to approaching the truths, but I am not aware of any actual way that really accomplishes that. All use some kind of hypnosis on the followers, as all other religions, philosophies, practices do, leaving the seeker exposed to gurus and dogmas' suggestions, all of them based on distorted interpretations of individual experiences. I believe that the only way to remove some of the distortions is to intuitively interpret everything. EDIT: I see that you edited your post, and reformulated in a few places, but I don't think that it makes a difference to my reply. What is intuition for unless it guides one to a more-objective reality? The sense of intuition you seem to like to use for understanding a more-objective reality is likely related to your apparent desire for a more all-encompassing map for understanding how/why things happen. I wager that you are a great and dependable electrician, and deeply respectful of and fascinated by the cause-effect relationships of electricity and/or energy. The pragmatics are aligned with such specific contexts, and not so interested in collapsing the boundaries of existential contexts. In the former contexts on electricity, any disrespect for the boundaries of physics brings on calamities, even life-threatening. Mayhaps you relate such danger with where your mind was at the edge of sanity back pre-1975. That's why I suggested the exploration of an emotional block, which could also be related to some childhood trauma, dunno. I've always been more curious about what you consider to be the cause-effect of how/why your mind was pulled away from that potential, fateful decision. There's someNothing there worth some present gratitude that might offer some intuitive appreciation for a conscious psychological death and conscious rebirth of something of an individuated eternity.
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Sept 5, 2023 9:00:16 GMT -5
I am of a different opinion. Hypnosis throws doubt on all sensual perception. If you can be hypnotized into looking for your shoe while holding it in your hand, or develop burns and blisters with no exposure to a burning agent, or forget your own name, or develop fears, likes and dislikes, and so on, then you obviously can't trust what you experience to be so. The intellectual understanding is based on the five senses perception, and it is distorted by your beliefs. You can't develop a higher order of knowledge intellectually. You need intuition. Reason and sense depend on the quality of the input data, and on the ability to reason. I think too that the Eastern ways are more conducive to approaching the truths, but I am not aware of any actual way that really accomplishes that. All use some kind of hypnosis on the followers, as all other religions, philosophies, practices do, leaving the seeker exposed to gurus and dogmas' suggestions, all of them based on distorted interpretations of individual experiences. I believe that the only way to remove some of the distortions is to intuitively interpret everything. EDIT: I see that you edited your post, and reformulated in a few places, but I don't think that it makes a difference to my reply. What is intuition for unless it guides one to a more-objective reality? That's a very interesting question, I just gave it a bit of thought while out walking. While I don't wholly disagree with your view, I'd say intuition doesn't necessarily indicate a more objective reality , it's more that it indicates the subjectively right way for that individual. Almost as if there's a higher self that can see the landscape far clearer than us...like a bird's eye view...and it drops hints (or stronger) about the path that is most aligned to who we really are. I find there are times that I absolutely cannot ignore intuition. When the body signal cannot be challenged. For example, my intuition (and body) has been absolutely clear that the covid vaccines weren't right for me (though they may have been right for others). And I've occasionally walked away from situations that I may have paid hundreds...even thousands...of dollars for....on the basis of compelling intuition. Often I am IN those situations to start with, because I didn't follow intuition! On the other hand, I agree with you to the extent that sometimes intuition can tell us when we are being lied to, when something is 'off', but I think what we may be picking up is that what is being sold to us is not aligned to who THEY really are.
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 5, 2023 10:52:55 GMT -5
Right, IT is prior to any appearance and/or subsequent label for such a thing. Horns? Yes. Singular. Good catch. And here I thought I had sounded so enlightened a la reeforoni.
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 5, 2023 11:00:04 GMT -5
What is intuition for unless it guides one to a more-objective reality? That's a very interesting question, I just gave it a bit of thought while out walking. While I don't wholly disagree with your view, I'd say intuition doesn't necessarily indicate a more objective reality , it's more that it indicates the subjectively right way for that individual. Almost as if there's a higher self that can see the landscape far clearer than us...like a bird's eye view...and it drops hints (or stronger) about the path that is most aligned to who we really are. I find there are times that I absolutely cannot ignore intuition. When the body signal cannot be challenged. For example, my intuition (and body) has been absolutely clear that the covid vaccines weren't right for me (though they may have been right for others). And I've occasionally walked away from situations that I may have paid hundreds...even thousands...of dollars for....on the basis of compelling intuition. Often I am IN those situations to start with, because I didn't follow intuition! On the other hand, I agree with you to the extent that sometimes intuition can tell us when we are being lied to, when something is 'off', but I think what we may be picking up is that what is being sold to us is not aligned to who THEY really are. Yeah, I could see how one might refine one's intuition, especially for specific purposes. It could even be used to turn one's attention on what grabs one's attention and why, and all the rest. It also seems that the 'better' one was attuned to it for certain contexts, the more one would likely feel confidence in the direction that emerges in its expression of thought/feeling, though the tinge of doubt may still be there.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Sept 5, 2023 12:27:18 GMT -5
That's the way I see it too. However, there seems to be no interest in going thru that door. Instead, Inavalan turns around and goes right back into imagination. As I understand these, I am oriented toward the expansion of consciousness, as opposed to regressing to a more primary level of consciousness, as the cellular consciousness is, from where, under LSD and other pracrices, the body is perceived as an universe. This happens because of the increased suggestibility in a thoughtless state. Surely this state appears to the seeker as an ultimate, but it is an ultimate dead end. I am interested in the expansion of the consciousness, and in expanding my consciousness. Imagination isn't a bad thing, as it is a tool of creation. Understood.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Sept 5, 2023 12:30:17 GMT -5
Past, present and future come and go. Experiences come and go. And what does come and go is not real. But Being, is. The Eternal Now, is. And only what does not come and go is real. That's why we are pointing to the Now and not the present, to Being and not experiences. I think that everything changes endlessly. The physical time is one dimension of the physical hyperspace. It is like the time of a story in a book you read, in a videogame you play. It isn't related to the time in the reader, or player's own reality. Yes, every- thing. But that's not everything. There is some-no-thing that isn't changing. And that's what we are pointing to.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Sept 5, 2023 12:31:37 GMT -5
Isn't it curious, ~GM~ would not know Being, without the *you*, ~GM~ says "is not real"? So it seems this "not real" something is pretty important. You are confusing the person with the individual again.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2023 12:44:56 GMT -5
That's the way I see it too. However, there seems to be no interest in going thru that door. Instead, Inavalan turns around and goes right back into imagination. As I understand these, I am oriented toward the expansion of consciousness, as opposed to regressing to a more primary level of consciousness, as the cellular consciousness is, from where, under LSD and other pracrices, the body is perceived as an universe. This happens because of the increased suggestibility in a thoughtless state. Surely this state appears to the seeker as an ultimate, but it is an ultimate dead end. I am interested in the expansion of the consciousness, and in expanding my consciousness. Imagination isn't a bad thing, as it is a tool of creation. These are concocted beliefs about the Unknown on the other side of the "door". An explorer would go through the door. But if you're attached to the belief-stage of spirituality, then you can't. Because the beliefs won't survive. Imagination is neither good nor bad. Imagination driven by fear of the Unknown - that might be the root of all evil.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2023 12:47:43 GMT -5
As I understand these, I am oriented toward the expansion of consciousness, as opposed to regressing to a more primary level of consciousness, as the cellular consciousness is, from where, under LSD and other pracrices, the body is perceived as an universe. This happens because of the increased suggestibility in a thoughtless state. Surely this state appears to the seeker as an ultimate, but it is an ultimate dead end. I am interested in the expansion of the consciousness, and in expanding my consciousness. Imagination isn't a bad thing, as it is a tool of creation. Understood. Dang, I thought you might take a Zen stick to that bull pucky. But you're probably smart to disengage. Hehe.
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Sept 5, 2023 13:29:12 GMT -5
That's a very interesting question, I just gave it a bit of thought while out walking. While I don't wholly disagree with your view, I'd say intuition doesn't necessarily indicate a more objective reality , it's more that it indicates the subjectively right way for that individual. Almost as if there's a higher self that can see the landscape far clearer than us...like a bird's eye view...and it drops hints (or stronger) about the path that is most aligned to who we really are. I find there are times that I absolutely cannot ignore intuition. When the body signal cannot be challenged. For example, my intuition (and body) has been absolutely clear that the covid vaccines weren't right for me (though they may have been right for others). And I've occasionally walked away from situations that I may have paid hundreds...even thousands...of dollars for....on the basis of compelling intuition. Often I am IN those situations to start with, because I didn't follow intuition! On the other hand, I agree with you to the extent that sometimes intuition can tell us when we are being lied to, when something is 'off', but I think what we may be picking up is that what is being sold to us is not aligned to who THEY really are. Yeah, I could see how one might refine one's intuition, especially for specific purposes. It could even be used to turn one's attention on what grabs one's attention and why, and all the rest. It also seems that the 'better' one was attuned to it for certain contexts, the more one would likely feel confidence in the direction that emerges in its expression of thought/feeling, though the tinge of doubt may still be there. I know there are courses out there for folks that wish to refine conditioning, and I guess some are very good, but for me it's been more organic, in the sense that as fear based conditioning has released, the intuitive sense has become compelling. For me, intuition isn't so much a technique, or a tool, it's more a way of being, or way of life. In certain ways, I'm quite animalistic.
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 5, 2023 13:54:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I could see how one might refine one's intuition, especially for specific purposes. It could even be used to turn one's attention on what grabs one's attention and why, and all the rest. It also seems that the 'better' one was attuned to it for certain contexts, the more one would likely feel confidence in the direction that emerges in its expression of thought/feeling, though the tinge of doubt may still be there. I know there are courses out there for folks that wish to refine conditioning, and I guess some are very good, but for me it's been more organic, in the sense that as fear based conditioning has released, the intuitive sense has become compelling. For me, intuition isn't so much a technique, or a tool, it's more a way of being, or way of life. In certain ways, I'm quite animalistic. Agreed, it is ultimately very organic, attuned to the experiential flow that is life. I've always been more of a gut-centered character (a la Enneagram type stuff). Ironically, as involved in education as I was, I'd say there's much more to learn/unlearn outside a classroom per se, as life is the actual classroom. In a way, imo, it could be said that many folks could use a little-lot more attuning to their animalistic nature, as opposed to denying it or solely valuing humanistic capacities like cerebral cognition. It can really fling some doors wide open; not to mention, it's just fun in that flow state. Being attuned with/as nature lured me back to the mountains a lot.
|
|
|
Post by lolly on Sept 5, 2023 16:38:15 GMT -5
I think we say 'intuition' to imply some sort of magic element to what we think. I use the word, too, "My intuition tells me...", but it only means I think something. I never did a statistical analysis, but I imagine my intuitions would be wrong about as frequently as any prediction pulled from a hat.
They seem magic because one forgets the wrong ones, like , Hh well, and remembers the right ones, like, See? Totally psychic.
Gestalt a weird word because no matter how many times I'm told what it means, I still have no it what it means. I did a 101 course on Gestalt psychology, but I always thought that was just the name of the guy who invented it.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 5, 2023 16:40:42 GMT -5
Isn't it curious, ~GM~ would not know Being, without the *you*, ~GM~ says "is not real"? So it seems this "not real" something is pretty important. You are confusing the person with the individual again. So the individual is real and the person is not? That's what I've been saying for 14 years, here (essence vs small s self/cultural self).
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Sept 5, 2023 16:44:39 GMT -5
I know there are courses out there for folks that wish to refine conditioning, and I guess some are very good, but for me it's been more organic, in the sense that as fear based conditioning has released, the intuitive sense has become compelling. For me, intuition isn't so much a technique, or a tool, it's more a way of being, or way of life. In certain ways, I'm quite animalistic. Agreed, it is ultimately very organic, attuned to the experiential flow that is life. I've always been more of a gut-centered character (a la Enneagram type stuff). Ironically, as involved in education as I was, I'd say there's much more to learn/unlearn outside a classroom per se, as life is the actual classroom. In a way, imo, it could be said that many folks could use a little-lot more attuning to their animalistic nature, as opposed to denying it or solely valuing humanistic capacities like cerebral cognition. It can really fling some doors wide open; not to mention, it's just fun in that flow state. Being attuned with/as nature lured me back to the mountains a lot. Nicely said thanks
|
|