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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 3:06:37 GMT -5
Yes I believe that is your experience. You identify as an individual doer. So why would Ramana prepare a meal if there wasn't self awareness in reflection of requiring food . There has to be the foundation present to support that notion. One doesn't get up to prepare food if there is no-one present within awareness that relates to food in some shape or form. Do you know what I understand of what constitutes an individual in relation to all that is? For many, as soon as there is the mention of the individual alarm bells start ringing because there is the belief that it must reflect the illusory separate peep. Is there anyone on the forums that has the awareness of being an individual and not being separate from all that is? And within this awareness one takes responsibility for what they do as an individual? And within this awareness recognise that they are the doer? All I seem to hear is folks thinking that there is no-one here even though it's self evident that there is. To then dismiss this as a dream or illusory or just an appearance. It really doesn't have to be like that at all. One just has to integrate the awareness of what you are that is an individual and what you are that isn't . Anyone understand that? It would not be correct to say there is no one here like some neo advaitins claim. Clearly there is individual ego. Deeds are done like washing the dishes. Maybe you feel that you as an individual are washing the dishes, but it's also possible to experience that there is no one washing the dishes even though dishes are being washed through the vehicle of individuality because individuality itself is just something arising from awareness. So is there anyone making this individuality arise? And if individuality does not arise you still remain. As what? The non doing witness of that which appears to be the doer.
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Post by tenka on Aug 5, 2023 5:32:55 GMT -5
So why would Ramana prepare a meal if there wasn't self awareness in reflection of requiring food . There has to be the foundation present to support that notion. One doesn't get up to prepare food if there is no-one present within awareness that relates to food in some shape or form. Do you know what I understand of what constitutes an individual in relation to all that is? For many, as soon as there is the mention of the individual alarm bells start ringing because there is the belief that it must reflect the illusory separate peep. Is there anyone on the forums that has the awareness of being an individual and not being separate from all that is? And within this awareness one takes responsibility for what they do as an individual? And within this awareness recognise that they are the doer? All I seem to hear is folks thinking that there is no-one here even though it's self evident that there is. To then dismiss this as a dream or illusory or just an appearance. It really doesn't have to be like that at all. One just has to integrate the awareness of what you are that is an individual and what you are that isn't . Anyone understand that? It would not be correct to say there is no one here like some neo advaitins claim. Clearly there is individual ego. Deeds are done like washing the dishes. Maybe you feel that you as an individual are washing the dishes, but it's also possible to experience that there is no one washing the dishes even though dishes are being washed through the vehicle of individuality because individuality itself is just something arising from awareness. So is there anyone making this individuality arise? And if individuality does not arise you still remain. As what? The non doing witness of that which appears to be the doer. When peeps speak about arising in awareness it just doesn't make sense to me .. How does an individual just arise in awareness? You are not really addressing what I am asking in relation to why one would wash the dishes in the first place. There has to be an association had between what you believe you are and what relations there are for the requirement of a clean dish and some chopped carrots. This relationship is built upon self awareness . Doing all these things when there is no one here doing anything just doesn't make any sense at all . Could you answer why there would be the requirement for these things to be done and no one is doing them .. It's impossible to not have the association as a foundation in place fundamentally .. All this arising in awareness doesn't bypass this.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 7:31:35 GMT -5
It would not be correct to say there is no one here like some neo advaitins claim. Clearly there is individual ego. Deeds are done like washing the dishes. Maybe you feel that you as an individual are washing the dishes, but it's also possible to experience that there is no one washing the dishes even though dishes are being washed through the vehicle of individuality because individuality itself is just something arising from awareness. So is there anyone making this individuality arise? And if individuality does not arise you still remain. As what? The non doing witness of that which appears to be the doer. When peeps speak about arising in awareness it just doesn't make sense to me .. How does an individual just arise in awareness? You are not really addressing what I am asking in relation to why one would wash the dishes in the first place. There has to be an association had between what you believe you are and what relations there are for the requirement of a clean dish and some chopped carrots. This relationship is built upon self awareness . Doing all these things when there is no one here doing anything just doesn't make any sense at all . Could you answer why there would be the requirement for these things to be done and no one is doing them .. It's impossible to not have the association as a foundation in place fundamentally .. All this arising in awareness doesn't bypass this. I am unable to give an answer that will satisfy you.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 5, 2023 8:02:10 GMT -5
The thing is most have had the experience of being on autopilot when washing the dishes or doing something else . This doesn't negate that one is washing the dishes just because one isn't consciously thinking that . One doesn't have to pay attention to themselves 24/7 to reflect an individual self to be an individual . The foundation is set already in place to facilitate that motion . If you're not consciously thinking that you're washing the dishes which would be a very unlikely way of operating, then the dishes are just being washed. If we had to consciously think about every single thing we were doing life would be mentally exhausting. Yet some people do it deliberately and call it mindfulness. 😃 Real practice is not conscious thinking. It has zero to do with thinking. You are absolutely correct here though, it would be exhausting, and superfluous. You can't find mindfulness defined as you describe it here, anywhere.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 8:31:14 GMT -5
If you're not consciously thinking that you're washing the dishes which would be a very unlikely way of operating, then the dishes are just being washed. If we had to consciously think about every single thing we were doing life would be mentally exhausting. Yet some people do it deliberately and call it mindfulness. 😃 Real practice is not conscious thinking. It has zero to do with thinking. You are absolutely correct here though, it would be exhausting, and superfluous. You can't find mindfulness defined as you describe it here, anywhere. Try Google.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 8:35:46 GMT -5
Here you go. This is the first one that appeared on Google for mindfulness search. "Mindfulness is the practice of being fully present and aware of your surroundings and what you’re doing......" www.coursera.org/articles/what-is-mindfulness?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 5, 2023 9:07:27 GMT -5
Real practice is not conscious thinking. It has zero to do with thinking. You are absolutely correct here though, it would be exhausting, and superfluous. You can't find mindfulness defined as you describe it here, anywhere. Try Google. If you find it, it's incorrect. Mindfulness does not mean thinking about what occurs. Buddha's Fourfold Mindfulness, and that should be the standard, is not about thinking about the body, the feelings, bodily actions. It is (#4) about pondering or contemplating the dharma, but I don't think that means in the ordinary sense, simply abstract rumination.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 9:15:31 GMT -5
If you find it, it's incorrect. Mindfulness does not mean thinking about what occurs. Buddha's Fourfold Mindfulness, and that should be the standard, is not about thinking about the body, the feelings, bodily actions. It is (#4) about pondering or contemplating the dharma, but I don't think that means in the ordinary sense, simply abstract rumination. It's the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html
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Post by tenka on Aug 5, 2023 13:55:04 GMT -5
When peeps speak about arising in awareness it just doesn't make sense to me .. How does an individual just arise in awareness? You are not really addressing what I am asking in relation to why one would wash the dishes in the first place. There has to be an association had between what you believe you are and what relations there are for the requirement of a clean dish and some chopped carrots. This relationship is built upon self awareness . Doing all these things when there is no one here doing anything just doesn't make any sense at all . Could you answer why there would be the requirement for these things to be done and no one is doing them .. It's impossible to not have the association as a foundation in place fundamentally .. All this arising in awareness doesn't bypass this. I am unable to give an answer that will satisfy you. Why would that be? Any answer that made sense with a foundation that supports it would be fine with me . I don't have to agree with any answer given, butt at present I have had no answers in relation to what I have spoken of . If there is the suggestion that there is no self referential awareness when one gets up to prepare food then it makes no sense to me because the thought of that does reflect the self that requires food. This isn't an action that happens when there is no association had to the self. I have simply asked why would anyone behave in such a way, whether it's making dinner or washing the dishes afterwards . I don't think it's a question that would create anything other than a clear and precise answer tbh if there was the foundation to back it up.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 20:54:13 GMT -5
I am unable to give an answer that will satisfy you. Why would that be? Any answer that made sense with a foundation that supports it would be fine with me . I don't have to agree with any answer given, butt at present I have had no answers in relation to what I have spoken of . If there is the suggestion that there is no self referential awareness when one gets up to prepare food then it makes no sense to me because the thought of that does reflect the self that requires food. This isn't an action that happens when there is no association had to the self. I have simply asked why would anyone behave in such a way, whether it's making dinner or washing the dishes afterwards . I don't think it's a question that would create anything other than a clear and precise answer tbh if there was the foundation to back it up. You haven't understood what I said about identity and non-identity, nor will you understand anything I say because you have no direct experience. You are in the state of ignorance so it's not possible to satisfy you with any answer on this subject.
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Post by laughter on Aug 6, 2023 1:35:36 GMT -5
When peeps speak about arising in awareness it just doesn't make sense to me .. How does an individual just arise in awareness? You are not really addressing what I am asking in relation to why one would wash the dishes in the first place. There has to be an association had between what you believe you are and what relations there are for the requirement of a clean dish and some chopped carrots. This relationship is built upon self awareness . Doing all these things when there is no one here doing anything just doesn't make any sense at all . Could you answer why there would be the requirement for these things to be done and no one is doing them .. It's impossible to not have the association as a foundation in place fundamentally .. All this arising in awareness doesn't bypass this. I am unable to give an answer that will satisfy you.
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Post by tenka on Aug 6, 2023 3:39:57 GMT -5
Why would that be? Any answer that made sense with a foundation that supports it would be fine with me . I don't have to agree with any answer given, butt at present I have had no answers in relation to what I have spoken of . If there is the suggestion that there is no self referential awareness when one gets up to prepare food then it makes no sense to me because the thought of that does reflect the self that requires food. This isn't an action that happens when there is no association had to the self. I have simply asked why would anyone behave in such a way, whether it's making dinner or washing the dishes afterwards . I don't think it's a question that would create anything other than a clear and precise answer tbh if there was the foundation to back it up. You haven't understood what I said about identity and non-identity, nor will you understand anything I say because you have no direct experience. You are in the state of ignorance so it's not possible to satisfy you with any answer on this subject. It's because of my direct experience I say what I say. Non identity reflects that one doesn't identify with wanting food nor wanting clean dishes. For some reason you seem to think that a non identified peep can behave in a manner that still reflects a conditioned self. It's not true. This is why I say that you have to watch the behaviours of other's who proclaim this and that about themselves. I am still open for you to explain why certain behaviours can be ongoing when supposedly there are no self identified relations to that which is ongoing. You haven't explained this to me. I am for the record more than capable of understanding a premise that is put forward. You don't have to satisfy me with what that would be, butt I do need a premise put forward to comment on . Do you understand what I have said in regards to non identity and not behaving in the same manner as one identified. You see when I was in a state of non identification . The world didn't exist for me. The carrots and dishes didn't exist either. That's why it makes no sense to me whatsoever.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2023 11:59:21 GMT -5
When peeps speak about arising in awareness it just doesn't make sense to me .. How does an individual just arise in awareness? You are not really addressing what I am asking in relation to why one would wash the dishes in the first place. There has to be an association had between what you believe you are and what relations there are for the requirement of a clean dish and some chopped carrots. This relationship is built upon self awareness . Doing all these things when there is no one here doing anything just doesn't make any sense at all . Could you answer why there would be the requirement for these things to be done and no one is doing them .. It's impossible to not have the association as a foundation in place fundamentally .. All this arising in awareness doesn't bypass this. I am unable to give an answer that will satisfy you.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2023 11:59:39 GMT -5
I am unable to give an answer that will satisfy you.
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Post by lolly on Aug 8, 2023 4:12:41 GMT -5
I think a sense of self and a belief in 'me' are different things, and if you pay attention to doing dishes, there is only an experience of dishes being done. There isn't a real-lived experience of a doer doing, but you're still being aware of doing the dishes. One can do them distractedly, but then you might break one. Mindfulness isn't so much as thinking about doing the dishes, but being conscious of the reality as it is momentarily. Because we get swept off by mind and lose contact with real lived experience, it feels like we notice that we've lost consciousness of the moment in which we live, and remember,'this is how it is'.
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