|
Post by Reefs on Jun 15, 2023 13:30:38 GMT -5
Practice for me means interior practice working from attention and/or awareness. When things TAKE our attention or awareness, that isn't practice. An analogy is juggling, if you stop, the balls fall. One practices until it's realized who/what is doing the practices, and that ends the self-deception as well as the practicing. After rowing to the shore and stepping onto dry land, one leaves the boat behind. One might ask, "Who/what is taking attention from who/what?" Are there two involved? As long as one imagines twoness, the game of twoness will continue. Precisely.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Jun 15, 2023 13:39:16 GMT -5
The Soto way is as long as you're climbing it doesn't matter if you're on the mountain top. Get it? Btw, ND folk seem like the Borg obsessed with wanting to take your individual identity. You can't have it! The Rinzai have steps to mark the way. That would be a misunderstanding of non-duality anyway. Identity isn't the issue in the same sense that the mirage of an oasis at the horizon isn't an issue. The issue is taking that identity or mirage of an oasis for something that it is not, i.e. seeing the false as real (and subsequently the real as false) is the actual issue. Once the false is seen as false and the real as real, the issue dissolves. You won't feel tempted anymore to ride out there and fill your canteen with water and you also won't feel tempted anymore to confine yourself to an individual identity.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Jun 15, 2023 13:53:56 GMT -5
The Soto way is as long as you're climbing it doesn't matter if you're on the mountain top. Get it? Btw, ND folk seem like the Borg obsessed with wanting to take your individual identity. You can't have it! The Rinzai have steps to mark the way. Btw, don't give a rat's ass about individual identify, mostly baggage it is. Just stuck in my opposional defiant teenage years. Time for a short hiatus. Peace. But you do identify strongly with this soto nonsense, don't you? This is what I mentioned earlier. Integration is key. And you can't integrate your realizations when you are still struggling with basic psychological issues, when you go thru these on/off cycles that you don't seem to be able to control. That's why on the yoga path and in traditional advaita, the first order of business is to help students to leave their psychological hiccups behind so that they become balanced individuals. And only then they are slowly introduced to meditation and deeper truths. Nowadays people just jump right into meditation, have some insights, but still struggle with psychological baggage and the result is very unbalanced individuals. That's not freedom, that's still bondage.
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Jun 17, 2023 3:19:54 GMT -5
E Pluribus Unum = hierarchy. (It doesn't bother me if you say it's irrelevant or imaginary). Heirarchy means resistance is obligatory. Life is a school. All that makes me almost alone here, ST's forum, no problem. I have no problem with the realization of ND. But that's the beginning/starting point, not the end. Integration is key. A lot of people don't seem to be able to integrate their 'profound' realizations into their daily lives. In that sense I'd agree. Too many armchair gurus in the spiritual online scene.Carl Jung, once said.. "Be careful of unearned wisdom."
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Jun 17, 2023 3:21:49 GMT -5
Btw, don't give a rat's ass about individual identify, mostly baggage it is. Just stuck in my opposional defiant teenage years. Time for a short hiatus. Peace. But you do identify strongly with this soto nonsense, don't you? This is what I mentioned earlier. Integration is key. And you can't integrate your realizations when you are still struggling with basic psychological issues, when you go thru these on/off cycles that you don't seem to be able to control. That's why on the yoga path and in traditional advaita, the first order of business is to help students to leave their psychological hiccups behind so that they become balanced individuals. And only then they are slowly introduced to meditation and deeper truths. Nowadays people just jump right into meditation, have some insights, but still struggle with psychological baggage and the result is very unbalanced individuals. That's not freedom, that's still bondage. One hack to being more balanced is to know exactly where your extremes are, and not visit them so often.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jun 17, 2023 15:13:39 GMT -5
Juggling is a good analogy. You have to relax and let your body do the work, a focal point is useful. Not thinking is useful. So when things take your attention, you are not practicing? Thoughts? What things take your attention away? Fear? Pain? Regret? Guilt? I think avoiding these is what causes me to lose sight of who I am, the knower. After all, these are body sensations triggered by real events sometimes, but mostly memories of past events. You can drown, get lost, in these waves ( thought streams). I think some folks get lost in trying to win arguments. Not you necessarily. Me some times. Do you enjoy your practice? I juggle, btw. Tennis balls. No chainsaws yet.Is what we say more important than how we say it? Can you practice while typing a response or do you lose yourself? If your attention or awareness gets lost in ANYTHING that's what identification is, correct, that's not-practice (getting lost is basically operating on autopilot). Almost everything takes your attention, but you can also be in those named-things, and observe too, but not easy to do, but that's what's to work to, then you don't get lost. But yes, you can drown. Yes, I enjoy practice. What and how both important. I decided on hacky sacks to juggle, no chasing balls. In the late '70's we were given the task, teach yourself to juggle. I mostly juggled rocks, it took me a week to learn. Yes, I can practice while typing-responding, did through that whole sentence. Without focus, in less than a minute I would get lost. I'll try to type, just....Oops a distraction entered the room, got lost right then. It always happens. Cool, can you do 4? 5? I saw a guy once say 4 is easy, 2 in one hand going, 2 in the other hand. It's the exact opposite. If you stray into a self-referential thought in some circumstances that demand your complete attention it can be dangerous. I understand your perspective, but I see it limited to only certain circumstances of "absorption". In sitting meditation, attention-on-attention can give way to awareness-of-awareness. "Focus", halts that progression.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jun 17, 2023 15:21:06 GMT -5
Integration is key. A lot of people don't seem to be able to integrate their 'profound' realizations into their daily lives. In that sense I'd agree. Too many armchair gurus in the spiritual online scene.Carl Jung, once said.. "Be careful of unearned wisdom."
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jun 17, 2023 15:22:34 GMT -5
But you do identify strongly with this soto nonsense, don't you? This is what I mentioned earlier. Integration is key. And you can't integrate your realizations when you are still struggling with basic psychological issues, when you go thru these on/off cycles that you don't seem to be able to control. That's why on the yoga path and in traditional advaita, the first order of business is to help students to leave their psychological hiccups behind so that they become balanced individuals. And only then they are slowly introduced to meditation and deeper truths. Nowadays people just jump right into meditation, have some insights, but still struggle with psychological baggage and the result is very unbalanced individuals. That's not freedom, that's still bondage. One hack to being more balanced is to know exactly where your extremes are, and not visit them so often. E' used to explain that to gopal as "clipping" .. but he never advised it, just described it.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 19, 2023 10:13:58 GMT -5
If your attention or awareness gets lost in ANYTHING that's what identification is, correct, that's not-practice (getting lost is basically operating on autopilot). Almost everything takes your attention, but you can also be in those named-things, and observe too, but not easy to do, but that's what's to work to, then you don't get lost. But yes, you can drown. Yes, I enjoy practice. What and how both important. I decided on hacky sacks to juggle, no chasing balls. In the late '70's we were given the task, teach yourself to juggle. I mostly juggled rocks, it took me a week to learn. Yes, I can practice while typing-responding, did through that whole sentence. Without focus, in less than a minute I would get lost. I'll try to type, just....Oops a distraction entered the room, got lost right then. It always happens. Cool, can you do 4? 5? I saw a guy once say 4 is easy, 2 in one hand going, 2 in the other hand. It's the exact opposite. If you stray into a self-referential thought in some circumstances that demand your complete attention it can be dangerous. I understand your perspective, but I see it limited to only certain circumstances of "absorption". In sitting meditation, attention-on-attention can give way to awareness-of-awareness. "Focus", halts that progression. I don't understand "It's the exact opposite". Sitting meditation is basically ~practice~ for attention-awareness in ordinary life, always and everywhere. ANYTHING means anything, it means always and everywhere. So ~my perspective~ is not limited in any way. What Gurdjieff called a conscious man (or woman) means exactly never being lost, never having one's attention or awareness taken by people, places, things, events, thoughts, feelings or bodily actions (which is the normal state for 99.9999% of people, and is what Gurdjieff meant by sleep (the second state of consciousness, ordinary, the so-called waking state, the first state being ordinary sleep-unconsciousness-+ dreams-for about-8-hours), that is, not-awake, IOW, not what is meant here, ST's forum discussion, by awakening from the consensus trance. IOW, it's not a one-time some-nothing, that is WAY down the road). So for Gurdjieff a conscious man lives from {attention}-awareness, without qualification. Up-to becoming a conscious man, conscious efforts are necessary. When conscious efforts are maintained continuously, that's being a conscious man, the definition. (satch and I had a discussion about this. He asked, Why would you want this? That question basically tells me everything). So, then, a field of energy has been built up which ~holds the state~, without effort, the field of energy maintains {attention}-awareness. However, only later is the state ~self-perpetuating~, until then, it takes interior practice to maintain the state, the field of energy, otherwise it will dissipate eventually. [Another practice enters here and can-only enter here. You have to come to this practice, that is, understand it own your own, it will never be given by another person, thus, the secret protects itself. This new practice is the way to move forward, IOW, without it, the journey stops. I say the new practice can only enter here, as for instance you can only build a third story floor if you have built a second story floor. The *first floor* is the body]. This {"new"} field of energy is perceptible, it can't-be ignored, it's monumental, extraordinarily extraordinary. Saying all that to say you are simply wrong, you can't possibly understand my perspective, if you understood it you couldn't say "it is limited to only certain circumstances". BTW, the beginning of the field of energy is faintly perceptible, and then more-so (you have written about it, your experience). Understand, and agree, "it can be dangerous".
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Jun 20, 2023 7:36:34 GMT -5
Funny but contentment and achievement are both synonyms of fulfillment. I would put to you that graduating from this school of life is much more about fulfillment/contentment than fulfillment/achievement. Only because the latter implies effort. Now understand that practice to me does not necessarily suggest effort. Can one practice napping and does that require effort? You are right, practice does not necessarily mean effort. But it does imply a goal. And that's the actual issue here, it seems. You want to get from A to B. Because you believe B will be better than A. That's extrinsic motivation. You perform an action in order to achieve an objective, which you think will give you more pleasure. Intrinsic motivation, on the other hand, would be performing the action for the sake of performing the action, because the action itself is the pleasure, the achievement is only an irrelevant byproduct. That is called flow experience, or play, or alignment. Even though a goalless goal seems self contradictory, it's a real thing. If there's a goal under the skin, an agenda, then the mind is up to it's old tricks. Hidden agendas are hard to note, subtle. It takes practice. I've gotten good at discerning mine and others. You're a funny grandma.
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Jun 20, 2023 7:44:00 GMT -5
The Soto way is as long as you're climbing it doesn't matter if you're on the mountain top. Get it? Btw, ND folk seem like the Borg obsessed with wanting to take your individual identity. You can't have it! The Rinzai have steps to mark the way. That would be a misunderstanding of non-duality anyway. Identity isn't the issue in the same sense that the mirage of an oasis at the horizon isn't an issue. The issue is taking that identity or mirage of an oasis for something that it is not, i.e. seeing the false as real (and subsequently the real as false) is the actual issue. Once the false is seen as false and the real as real, the issue dissolves. You won't feel tempted anymore to ride out there and fill your canteen with water and you also won't feel tempted anymore to confine yourself to an individual identity. Issues dissolve? My point was that the notion of having or not having an individual identity, those "ideas," are silly. Both sides of that conflict are confused, but I've just started another one. Silly me.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 20, 2023 7:46:16 GMT -5
You are right, practice does not necessarily mean effort. But it does imply a goal. And that's the actual issue here, it seems. You want to get from A to B. Because you believe B will be better than A. That's extrinsic motivation. You perform an action in order to achieve an objective, which you think will give you more pleasure. Intrinsic motivation, on the other hand, would be performing the action for the sake of performing the action, because the action itself is the pleasure, the achievement is only an irrelevant byproduct. That is called flow experience, or play, or alignment. Even though a goalless goal seems self contradictory, it's a real thing. If there's a goal under the skin, an agenda, then the mind is up to it's old tricks. Hidden agendas are hard to note, subtle. It takes practice. I've gotten good at discerning mine and others. You're a funny grandma.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 20, 2023 7:52:10 GMT -5
E Pluribus Unum = hierarchy. (It doesn't bother me if you say it's irrelevant or imaginary). Heirarchy means resistance is obligatory. Life is a school. All that makes me almost alone here, ST's forum, no problem. I have no problem with the realization of ND. But that's the beginning/starting point, not the end. Integration is key. A lot of people don't seem to be able to integrate their 'profound' realizations into their daily lives. In that sense I'd agree. Too many armchair gurus in the spiritual online scene. sdp almost likes. I'd say there realizations weren't as profound as they thought they were. Maybe that's what you mean by 'profound'. A little more next post...
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Jun 20, 2023 7:54:43 GMT -5
Btw, don't give a rat's ass about individual identify, mostly baggage it is. Just stuck in my opposional defiant teenage years. Time for a short hiatus. Peace. But you do identify strongly with this soto nonsense, don't you? This is what I mentioned earlier. Integration is key. And you can't integrate your realizations when you are still struggling with basic psychological issues, when you go thru these on/off cycles that you don't seem to be able to control. That's why on the yoga path and in traditional advaita, the first order of business is to help students to leave their psychological hiccups behind so that they become balanced individuals. And only then they are slowly introduced to meditation and deeper truths. Nowadays people just jump right into meditation, have some insights, but still struggle with psychological baggage and the result is very unbalanced individuals. That's not freedom, that's still bondage. Integration, alignment. You're starting your own religion. Soto had a very practical positive impact in my life, zazen, that is. But I'm not attached to Soto or Rinzai or even Zen. It's a preference. I enjoy zazen. But honestly the zendo was a crazy place. I take issue with the separation of alignment and self realization. Self realization is loving your neighbor as yourself, truly. What you call self realization is what I call cracker jack awakening. Lots of it floating around. In other words if you're still an asshole after SR then you're fooling yourself.
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Jun 20, 2023 8:06:49 GMT -5
Btw, I have some things to take care of so it'll be a few days before I reply to any comments. Peace.
|
|