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Post by laughter on Dec 6, 2022 18:14:51 GMT -5
I'm throwing this out there. Thoughts? At the same time, even though there’s a certain science to how they are nurtured and/or applied, he also warns against the pursuit of these siddhis at the expense of realizing Self (he stated as the most important, and I’d agree), because they typically would reinforce the sense of a separate self due to the pride, arrogance, and inflated ego. I'm open minded enough to perhaps consider experiences where there's still self-referential "thought" to be this "deep flow", but this is certainly a significant conceptual distinction.  As I like to joke with zd: it's one of those "ya' kinda' not have to have been there" thingies ... |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 6, 2022 21:02:11 GMT -5
This little story can be interpreted on several levels ... deeper then higher.
For example, it may strike one as humorous story, because of the unexpected disclosure in the last sentence.
This reminds of Asimov's "Jokester" ("humour is actually a psychological study tool imposed on the human race by extraterrestrials studying mankind, similarly to how humans study mice.").
Like this story that makes people chuckle: "The wife was dying and her husband was by her bedside. She said in a tired voice 'There's something I must confess.' 'Shhh, shhh,' he said 'There's nothing to confess...
Everything's all right.' 'No, I must confess to you: I cheated on you with your brother, your best friend, his best friend, and your father!' 'I know, I know,' he whispered 'That's why I poisoned you.' "
Another level would be the baby turtle's repeated suffering caused by its ignorance (and perseverance, as per the 'no pain, no gain' slogan). It might also infer that perseverance, when ignorant, is futile. This seems to allude to the human condition, of living in trance under a societal hypnosis.
The baby turtle's "deeper" realization of its nature of not being a bird, which would curtail its hope of flying, is another level, which would end its physical suffering by inoculating limiting beliefs ('truths'), and would shatter its aspiration. Well-meaning people can do that to you, with their best intentions.
Maybe ultimately, the baby turtle could get sudden lucidity, and realize its "higher" nature, that all is a dream limited only by its beliefs, and that she can actually fly, then just do it ('nike!'). In this case, so outlandish compared with the established narrative, some of the others wouldn't even be able to register such an event of a flying baby turtle, and would create a different kind of narrative in their individual realities, e.g. baby turtle's death, disappearance, use of a parachute, climbing down, ...
I think that a "deep" realization is probably an insurmountable obstacle to attaining a "higher" realization, which is a shame.
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Post by laughter on Dec 6, 2022 22:32:03 GMT -5
I haven't read much about siddhis, and I would certainly not suggest that anyone chase after special experiences, powers, CC's, etc because such chasing would be a movement in the wrong direction and would enhance the sense of being a SVP seeking to go from point A to point B (when most of us would probably agree that there is no point B). I was lucky to find the community I did back in '10. The whole ego game of claiming enlightenment hadn't even occurred to me until it became clear this was a major interest to some folks in that dialog. The clearest voices there resonated with the informing of mind that followed: what is realized is that the existential truth isn't a reward for hard work or good behavior, and that it's not going to make you a superpeep either. Instead, it's a simple, and yet subtle commonality among anyone and everyone. Nothing more or less than the awareness of being. Not anyone's fault that it seems so easy to overlook.  |
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Post by laughter on Dec 6, 2022 22:36:37 GMT -5
The instances of “no reflective thought”, “unseen electrical circuit”, “magnetic field”, .. oh and meant to mention .. the tingly thing is something anyone anywhere anytime can perceive if they just pay attention to it.  ... the underlying connection of that to a profound sense of joy, well maybe that's a little harder for some folks at some times .... dunno' ... |
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Post by laughter on Dec 6, 2022 22:40:14 GMT -5
Ah, that clicks the story for sure, and I can't imagine wanting to give away the company to the employees was good for marital bliss either. That and wanting to give away our house as well! It was a rather severe threat to any sense of security  |
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Post by laughter on Dec 6, 2022 22:49:50 GMT -5
I think this little story fits here well:  That's purddy funny! Turtles all the way down! Persist.  not here nor there nor anywhere yet up and down and all around not good nor bad not high not low yet all you ever need to know in the silence there you'll feel the thingless thing the only real smile at the subtle grace no distance to this placeless place |
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Post by laughter on Dec 6, 2022 22:55:43 GMT -5
Your babbling is always appreciated! My post was prompted by a discussion with someone who objected to a comment I made that was pointing to what I considered a "distinguishable difference" between the effortless state of flow following SR and what I remembered as a somewhat "deeper" state of flow immediately following a CC. His response could be summarized as, "There is nothing deeper than THIS." I agree with his response 100%, but ATST I suspect that the reported statement of Jesus in the NT, "In my Father's house are many mansions," may have been pointing to what I was pointing to. As one example, some people wake up from the consensus paradigm and never directly apprehend/encounter what the word "God" points to whereas other people do. What they apprehend cannot be captured in words, but "a shining effulgent darkness" (written by a Christian mystic) is one way someone attempted to point to it. THIS unfolds however it unfolds, but different human manifestations of THIS have widely varying experiences and realizations in the process of that unfolding. I hesitated to use the word "deep flow" because it implies that deep is better than "ordinary everyday flow," but I couldn't think of any words that accurately apply to what I was attempting to point to. I haven't read much about siddhis, and I would certainly not suggest that anyone chase after special experiences, powers, CC's, etc because such chasing would be a movement in the wrong direction and would enhance the sense of being a SVP seeking to go from point A to point B (when most of us would probably agree that there is no point B). I simply noticed in the spiritual literature that many people have written about distinct kinds of phenomena following kensho events that seemed noteworthy. I have also personally met many sages/teachers/whateverwewanttocallgthem who seemed extraordinarily clear following a powerful kensho event and attracted lots of followers who later fell back into the mind, got attached to various questionable ideas, and lost all of their followers. Initially they were "in the current" to use Ramana's words, but later they seemed to have lost that connection to Source. Various Advaita sages have a fairly agreed-upon list of definitions regarding different forms of samadhi, and I have a reference for most of them, but one or two of them make me wonder exactly what's being pointed to. For example, what's the difference between sahaja samadhi and sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi? I use the phrase "everyday samadhi" to refer to the state of flow represented by the brick-laying guy. Artists and musicians, particularly, seem aware that when they get totally involved in their artwork, time, space, and selfhood disappear altogether for a while even if they know nothing about deeper meditative states of samadhi, such as nirvikalpa. "Being in the zone," for certain people, such as mountain climbers, is a state of unity consciousness that is often regarded as mystical in retrospect because they were able to do things that were seemingly impossible. As one mountain climber stated with considerable awe after summiting a sheer wall, "Something else took over and climbed that rock face because it was far beyond my capability. If THAT had not taken over, I would have peeled off the face and fallen to my death because I had reached a point in my free climb where I couldn't move in any direction and had no idea how I could save myself." That may not be an exact quote, but it's pretty close. AAR, flow is an interesting topic and one that perhaps other people can provide additional insights about. Right. In my observation, the siddhis are things/capabilities that arise, and it is likely that, because they are quite mystically phenomenal, they became special things to pursue. That they can be replicated at worldly will is probably why a specialized science of them arose. It may be that there is something of a gray area that transferred to the idea of seeking enlightenment and that it can be attained by the person, and something that can emerge only through practice, much like the total 'selfless' involvement in an activity, including meditation. Mountain climbing and bricklaying would be more outward focuses of attention while falling into a flow, while meditation would be more inwardly focused, perhaps attempting to bring the attention to a point (while others may use it as a form of escape from their mind (to which the attention/unconscious identity is attached). It might be noted that when in such states of flow, it is only in hindsight in which the source of agency is applied, thus giving rise to the insight into whether there's still an unconscious belief in an SVP doing such things. That is, everyone who has ever lived experiences flow states (even while thinking) on a daily basis, but most have never noticed it. The self is never there, only unconsciously assumed as an overlay, and often it shows up in the reporting of things that happened 'to/from' appearing peeps, regardless of the fact that no one has ever actually found a 'me'. That is where ND comes in and throws a monkey wrench into the whole affair. That's kind of what I was alluding to in my earlier rambling. I'd be curious to see the changes in outward, observable appearance of flow (to an onlooker that report such observations/stories of them) if one were to drop a deeply revered sage into the mix of living life in, say, NYC and/or dealing with grind of running a business and/or the nuances of intimate relationship. But the fact remains, that flow is something that emerges as a lack of self-consciousness; the deeper sense of flow is alluding to being in/of the flow, and there is no consciousness of any self, which would divide and give an open door to the inherent fear. KNOWING is being a sense of THAT which is informing the mind of the inherent dreamlike quality of the world in which life in NYC, the grinds, and sense of other are actually falling away. I mean, everyone can be such a sage, but only if they are willing to simply look, and notice that unerring Truth prior to all 'truths' the mind conjures. Even science is 'validating' such nuances in the studies related to the Cosmological Principle, but perhaps hasn't/can't come to terms with its implications, much in the same way it approaches consciousness studies. I do wonder about such scientific practioners' minds when some of the deeper realizations might give them a flash, like when they keep splitting things smaller and smaller, but keep finding mostly space. Yet, they keep looking for more things, thus perpetuating the creative process. But, it is more likely that the momentum of their habitual studies about physical nature and/or the outward appearances that keeps things neatly out of focus, much like the pursuit of siddhis. But perhaps some of them do get a flash and do take it to heart, but I haven't really looked into it. There's that story that Newton burned a lot of his books before he died, but I do not know the full story of the whys. When IT dawned on the 'me', it was easy to appreciate at least one potential why. I remember when the Italian sadhu (heavily into Vedanta for decades) I had met was in the course of testing me (he told me later he was, anyway), that I told him that I had stumbled onto something I was not supposed to see, and I simply could not put it into words. That series of interactions went on for a couple weeks, and I had never even heard of Advaita at that point. I remembered thinking of several books that I would have no problem burning, if not for just a fun ritual of showing wondrous gratitude, hehe. I appreciate the symbolism of the eternal fire. 🔥 The only way that people who work in Manhattan "move" at the rate they do (because they have to) is what you might call a sense of "social flow", and it's particularly reflected in the cadence of the bridge and tunnel accent. There's a funny push/pull between that and the inevitable frustration that such a congested environment results in, and generally speaking, they'll hurl the most vicious insults at each other and often just sail right on through without taking it personally. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 6, 2022 23:01:46 GMT -5
There is self sustaining flow / Samadhi and not self sustaining flow / Samadhi (e.g. experienced through work / art / music). In self sustaining Samadhi the "object" of Samadhi is the Samadhi itself. Normal flow is a feedback loop. Self sustaining flow is a feedback loop that feeds on itself. I used to describe it with the metaphor of a phased locked loop.  .. E' pointed out in a dialog that it was "attention on attention". At the phase-lock, once it's self-sustaining, attention can relax, open up, and starts becoming "awareness of awareness". But, we digress away, from deep flow. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 6, 2022 23:22:44 GMT -5
From "Be As You Are" where Godman clarifies and summarizes RM's views on Samadhi. In my view RM saw KNS and savikalpa samadhi as intermediate stages on the path to sahaja. Several times, RM mentions the removal of vasanas as a necessary pre-requisite to sahaja. This excision occurs as one practices SI. "The classification generally used by Sri Ramana divides the various samadhis into the following three-fold division: 1 Sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi This is the state of the jnani who has finally and irrevocably eliminated his ego. Sahaja means ‘natural’ and nirvikalpa means ‘no differences’. A jnani in this state is able to function naturally in the world, just as any ordinary person does. Knowing that he is the Self, the sahaja jnani sees no difference between himself and others and no difference between himself and the world. For such a person, everything is a manifestation of the indivisible Self. 2 Kevala nirvikalpa samadhi This is the stage below Self-realization. In this state there is a temporary but effortless Self-awareness, but the ego has not been finally eliminated. It is characterised by an absence of body-consciousness. Although one has a temporary awareness of the Self in this state, one is not able to perceive sensory information or function in the world. When body-consciousness returns, the ego reappears. 3 Savikalpa samadhi In this state Self-awareness is maintained by constant effort. The continuity of the samadhi is wholly dependent on the effort put in to maintain it. When Self-attention wavers, Self-awareness is obscured. The following brief definitions formulated by Sri Ramana should be sufficient to guide the uninitiated through the terminological jungle of samadhi: 1 Holding on to reality is samadhi. 2 Holding on to reality with effort is savikalpa samadhi. 3 Merging in reality and remaining unaware of the world is nirvikalpa samadhi. 4 Merging in ignorance and remaining unaware of the world is sleep. 5 Remaining in the primal, pure, natural state without effort is sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi." I can recognize "savikalpa samadhi" as what Albert Low suggested in his book, The Iron Cow of Zen. The way he puts it is to "arouse the mind without resting it anywhere". Evidently, he traced this as somehow paraphrasing the Diamond Sutra, but I've never picked up on that in my readings of the DS and haven't been back to Iron Cow since the first time I read it. Never would have had any interest in any of it without having experienced the sudden, temporary vanishing act of the phantom. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 6, 2022 23:24:14 GMT -5
I can relate to your Ramana quote.. I get into a hypnotic trance for my psychic experiences that involve working with my subconscious. Trance is a multi-dimensional state, and not only light, medium, deep, as generally thought. It is a way of focusing on a narrower range of perception, tuning in, bypassing of the critical-factor, selective thinking. I ask my subconscious to optimize my trance for most mundane or psychic experiences I intend having: reading, working-out, driving, ..., but also regressions, psychic sensing, tapping into guidance and knowledge, healing, ... There is also an " expanded awareness" state, that I feel to somehow be in the opposite "direction" of the hypnotic trance. In this state I feel I reach anywhere both in the physical-reality, and "wherever" I can " ascend" in the non-physical-reality, with the same ease. Anyway, hypnotic trance states go deeper, and expanded awareness states go higher / wider / further (not in physical terms). Both kinds are inner states, but hypnotic states feel to be from the perspective of leaving behind the "here", while the expanding awareness feel to be from the perspective of expanding "there". The former are toward and through the subconscious, the latter are after and past the subconscious. I don't think ZD implied different levels of flow in the sense of a progressive deepening when he was talking about deep flow. The way I see it, it's like flipping a switch. It's a sudden shift from the relative to the absolute perspective. What you are describing all belongs to the relative perspective. In comparison to our normal experience, flow happening in the relative context may still be very profound, but it is no comparison to flow in the absolute context. What you are addressing though is a common misconception about the impersonal or absolute perspective. Very often people think that the impersonal is just a more expansive version of the personal. And so they imagine some sort of path to the impersonal via gradually expanding their perspective and awareness. That's not how it works. The light is either on or off. There is no twilight zone. "That first step's a dooozie!" |
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Post by laughter on Dec 6, 2022 23:29:32 GMT -5
Yes, that seems to be the case. In every description of deep flow that I've read about it occurs after a CC or significant realization, and the duration varies with the individual from several days to several years. In some rare cases, such as Ramana and perhaps the Buddha, it was apparently permanent. Like you, I had a demanding small business to operate (with ten employees and multiple construction projects) when that happened, so sitting on a park bench doing nothing for two years or more was not in the cards. My marriage was saved by the "pouring concrete realization" that occurred several years later. I would say it's logical that it would be accompanied by a realization when it happens because it is the impersonal perspective. I don't trust those reports about Ramana though. I find the deification of Ramana by certain authors a bit weird. It doesn't ring true (and from an alignment perspective it is demonstrably not true) but it is also counter to Ramana's message. I'm curious, you both say it saved your marriage. How? For me it was because of conflict. I guess people get divorced because they reach a point where they don't want to tolerate conflict any longer. I've told this story multiple times, about how, sometime in the weeks after the vanishing act, we were laying in bed together, talking, and she started to get really angry. She started hurling all these nasty insults, and I was literally like "who is this you, she keeps referring to??  ". ... (** muttley snicker **) .. perhaps that's what "couples therapy" is trying to acheive: at least a temporary pause in the constant cycle of reactivity, cause in the past, that's how it would have gone. |
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Post by zazeniac on Dec 7, 2022 9:31:14 GMT -5
From "Be As You Are" where Godman clarifies and summarizes RM's views on Samadhi. In my view RM saw KNS and savikalpa samadhi as intermediate stages on the path to sahaja. Several times, RM mentions the removal of vasanas as a necessary pre-requisite to sahaja. This excision occurs as one practices SI. "The classification generally used by Sri Ramana divides the various samadhis into the following three-fold division: 1 Sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi This is the state of the jnani who has finally and irrevocably eliminated his ego. Sahaja means ‘natural’ and nirvikalpa means ‘no differences’. A jnani in this state is able to function naturally in the world, just as any ordinary person does. Knowing that he is the Self, the sahaja jnani sees no difference between himself and others and no difference between himself and the world. For such a person, everything is a manifestation of the indivisible Self. 2 Kevala nirvikalpa samadhi This is the stage below Self-realization. In this state there is a temporary but effortless Self-awareness, but the ego has not been finally eliminated. It is characterised by an absence of body-consciousness. Although one has a temporary awareness of the Self in this state, one is not able to perceive sensory information or function in the world. When body-consciousness returns, the ego reappears. 3 Savikalpa samadhi In this state Self-awareness is maintained by constant effort. The continuity of the samadhi is wholly dependent on the effort put in to maintain it. When Self-attention wavers, Self-awareness is obscured. The following brief definitions formulated by Sri Ramana should be sufficient to guide the uninitiated through the terminological jungle of samadhi: 1 Holding on to reality is samadhi. 2 Holding on to reality with effort is savikalpa samadhi. 3 Merging in reality and remaining unaware of the world is nirvikalpa samadhi. 4 Merging in ignorance and remaining unaware of the world is sleep. 5 Remaining in the primal, pure, natural state without effort is sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi." I can recognize "savikalpa samadhi" as what Albert Low suggested in his book, The Iron Cow of Zen. The way he puts it is to "arouse the mind without resting it anywhere". Evidently, he traced this as somehow paraphrasing the Diamond Sutra, but I've never picked up on that in my readings of the DS and haven't been back to Iron Cow since the first time I read it. Never would have had any interest in any of it without having experienced the sudden, temporary vanishing act of the phantom. Savikalpa samadhi is Self Inquiry or any number of other moment to moment practices, like ATA, or mindfulness. They are all pretty close to each other though the purist argue otherwise. The point being to get off the thought train that takes you nowhere and just Be. Because you can't find the Absolute, you can only Be. In that Stillness, there might come Recognition. What you call the mind being informed. Everyone has interest. Everyone gets a taste. Through everyday tasks, like the brick layer ZD mentions or satisfying a desire or reading a great poem or novel, being awed by art or music. Only these are temporary suspensions of the mindscape version of reality. And in many cases lead you astray, harden the belief in the person vs the world, solidify maya's hold. For my taste when the ordinary is no loner ordinary, then I'm not swimming in maya. Sorry to inform you most of us here are swimmers. Hence, the rigamarole and conflict, personal attacks, defending our claims, endless back and forth. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 7, 2022 22:14:55 GMT -5
I can recognize "savikalpa samadhi" as what Albert Low suggested in his book, The Iron Cow of Zen. The way he puts it is to "arouse the mind without resting it anywhere". Evidently, he traced this as somehow paraphrasing the Diamond Sutra, but I've never picked up on that in my readings of the DS and haven't been back to Iron Cow since the first time I read it. Never would have had any interest in any of it without having experienced the sudden, temporary vanishing act of the phantom. Savikalpa samadhi is Self Inquiry or any number of other moment to moment practices, like ATA, or mindfulness. They are all pretty close to each other though the purist argue otherwise. The point being to get off the thought train that takes you nowhere and just Be. Because you can't find the Absolute, you can only Be. In that Stillness, there might come Recognition. What you call the mind being informed. Everyone has interest. Everyone gets a taste. Through everyday tasks, like the brick layer ZD mentions or satisfying a desire or reading a great poem or novel, being awed by art or music. Only these are temporary suspensions of the mindscape version of reality. And in many cases lead you astray, harden the belief in the person vs the world, solidify maya's hold. For my taste when the ordinary is no loner ordinary, then I'm not swimming in maya. Sorry to inform you most of us here are swimmers. Hence, the rigamarole and conflict, personal attacks, defending our claims, endless back and forth. As to your description of self-inquiry, yes, but I'd say that your descriptions of savikalpa infer a heightened state of alertness. It's a 16/7 sort of affair. sifty talks about it, for example. No need to apologize for providing such information, but I ask you, "who is Arjuna?". We can see the false and false, but if you imagine that clarity means the end of conflict, well, I'd invite you to take another look. I'm not discounting the potential for self-deception on the matter, but that potential cuts in all manner of direction. |
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Post by zazeniac on Dec 7, 2022 22:30:30 GMT -5
Savikalpa samadhi is Self Inquiry or any number of other moment to moment practices, like ATA, or mindfulness. They are all pretty close to each other though the purist argue otherwise. The point being to get off the thought train that takes you nowhere and just Be. Because you can't find the Absolute, you can only Be. In that Stillness, there might come Recognition. What you call the mind being informed. Everyone has interest. Everyone gets a taste. Through everyday tasks, like the brick layer ZD mentions or satisfying a desire or reading a great poem or novel, being awed by art or music. Only these are temporary suspensions of the mindscape version of reality. And in many cases lead you astray, harden the belief in the person vs the world, solidify maya's hold. For my taste when the ordinary is no loner ordinary, then I'm not swimming in maya. Sorry to inform you most of us here are swimmers. Hence, the rigamarole and conflict, personal attacks, defending our claims, endless back and forth. As to your description of self-inquiry, yes, but I'd say that your descriptions of savikalpa infer a heightened state of alertness. It's a 16/7 sort of affair. No need to apologize for providing such information, but I ask you, "who is Arjuna?". We can see the false and false, but if you imagine that clarity means the end of conflict, well, I'd invite you to take another look. I'm not discounting the potential for self-deception on the matter, but that potential cuts in all manner of direction. Point well taken. |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 7, 2022 23:47:52 GMT -5
Agreed, except for this part. You are not suggesting that this is a matter of willpower, are you? Maybe you can clarify. Good eye, and it’s a fair logic chop. The looking could be considered a willful effort, I suppose, though there is no SVP to do it. But noticing emerges spontaneously (i.e., grace), giving a taste of the Void of no other. Always interesting to observe what happens after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, … taste, as the illusion of mind’s control is persistent. Even the mind’s attachment to emptiness has to be considered a potential boundary to Truth, though it serves a function. Yes, focus vs. noticing (or realizing). |
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As I like to joke with zd:
... the underlying connection of that to a profound sense of joy, well maybe that's a little harder for some folks at some times .... dunno' ...
.. E' pointed out in a dialog that it was "attention on attention". At the phase-lock, once it's self-sustaining, attention can relax, open up, and starts becoming "awareness of awareness". But, we digress away, from deep flow.
