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Post by satchitananda on Jan 4, 2020 10:59:52 GMT -5
have you heard of 'charades'? Send us a video message.... Exactly, but in lieu of a video, we can use stars to signify a physical action. For example, if someone asks, "What are you?" The answer could be, *dances a little jig* That's a direct answer to the question that any Zen student would understand and appreciate. The idea is to avoid reflective thought and let the body answer the question. Most koans include what are called "mind hooks" which are designed to trigger discursive thought. The trick is to avoid getting hooked into thinking, and let the body's natural intelligence respond. Sometimes one will be amazed at the body's response if the intellect remains quiescent. Even more amazing is how fast the body can respond if thinking does not occur. As I've mentioned in the past, when my daughter was about six years old, I would ask her koans, and she could answer a lot of them because she hadn't yet begun living totally in her head. She was able to do this up to about the age of eight. After the age or eight or nine, not only couldn't she answer the koans I asked her, but she became unable to answer the same koans that she had easily answered at the age of six. This graphically showed how humans gradually leave body-knowing behind and shift almost exclusively to head-knowing. The only time body-knowing takes over again for adults is usually in an emergency or life-threatening situation. It can also take precedence if one purposely uses meditative techniques to get out of their heads and reconnect intuitively (another word for body knowing) with the world. The body isn't answering the question. The mind is, but expressing it as bodily action. Nothing remotely Zen about it. 😀
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 4, 2020 11:01:29 GMT -5
*smashes staff to the ground* Exactly! Yeah, with his mind. Duh!
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Post by enigma on Jan 4, 2020 12:03:20 GMT -5
This is new to me. A self reference is used to initiate action, then it goes on autopilot? The good thing about autopilot in planes is that there isn't much, other than other planes, to interfere with the programmed flight plan. Back on the ground, what happens if the store is out of the preferred brand of milk? Does autopilot get switched off, self reference activated, and a new flight plan followed involving a different brand of milk, then self reference switched off and autopilot switched back on again? What if there are 20 or 30 new flight plans to be filed before returning home with a quart of milk? Is this ultimately going to involve multiple cake layers and such? Well the pilgrims self reference was initially 'beyond words' so there can't even be an self reference initially had that would prompt the action of buying milk in the first place . Autopilot is irrelevant here because one would not even get the plane off the ground with a foundation in place that was beyond words . I don't remember what he said about the reference being beyond words and I don't know what that means. If it means not thinking the words, I agree with him. Same for unconscious mental activity. In what way do you think words are necessary for a self reference?
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Post by enigma on Jan 4, 2020 12:05:28 GMT -5
I am glad you see meaning in what Z.D. say's, but in context it's not possible . I am happy to talk about beyond labels and I have done so, but the point was that there was no self reference had when there was the mention before of the chap seeing trees in a different light . To see anything in this way will still contain a self reference that the trees are not trees . One can only make that distinction based upon what they previously knew about trees lol . This is what is so silly about it all, there is a constant dance going on and one is trying to outrun their shadow . It doesn't work . We have agreed to attaining various degrees of focus and attention upon self and we can skip to the toilet without thinking out loud about why we are heading there but one knows that a toilet is a toilet based upon self recognition, based upon a thought of oneself, based upon an identity of sorts . There really is the guru mentality here at times that seems to want to brush all these self aspects under the carpet, but when questions are asked about these absences it actually magnifies that these absences are present . you've obviously followed your own conversation with ZD much closer than me, but I was under the impression that once he understood your definitions and context, he agreed that it's true to say that there is a self reference and he sees milk....? Have I got the wrong impression? If not, I don't see a problem with what he is also often keen to talk about and convey... Yeah, that's what I thought happened too.
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Post by enigma on Jan 4, 2020 12:23:32 GMT -5
Well the pilgrims self reference was initially 'beyond words' so there can't even be an self reference initially had that would prompt the action of buying milk in the first place . nd a Autopilot is irrelevant here because one would not even get the plane off the ground with a foundation in place that was beyond words . He means 'beyond word' like a baby is 'pre-word'. But otherwise I agree, I don't think a self reference is de-activated, there's always a focus of attention or an interest playing out.Here's an interesting one for you. Talking to my wife yesterday and at the end she asked for the phone. I said, 'I don't have it'. She said, 'it's in your pocket, I gave it to you while we were talking and you put it in there'. I said, 'no, you didn't!', but I checked my pocket and it was there! That was autopilot!! I had zero knowledge of taking the phone (but agree the self reference was still present) Yeah, that's how I see it too. Rather than the reference shutting down, it likely just stays unconscious.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 4, 2020 12:26:19 GMT -5
Exactly, but in lieu of a video, we can use stars to signify a physical action. For example, if someone asks, "What are you?" The answer could be, *dances a little jig* That's a direct answer to the question that any Zen student would understand and appreciate. The idea is to avoid reflective thought and let the body answer the question. Most koans include what are called "mind hooks" which are designed to trigger discursive thought. The trick is to avoid getting hooked into thinking, and let the body's natural intelligence respond. Sometimes one will be amazed at the body's response if the intellect remains quiescent. Even more amazing is how fast the body can respond if thinking does not occur. As I've mentioned in the past, when my daughter was about six years old, I would ask her koans, and she could answer a lot of them because she hadn't yet begun living totally in her head. She was able to do this up to about the age of eight. After the age or eight or nine, not only couldn't she answer the koans I asked her, but she became unable to answer the same koans that she had easily answered at the age of six. This graphically showed how humans gradually leave body-knowing behind and shift almost exclusively to head-knowing. The only time body-knowing takes over again for adults is usually in an emergency or life-threatening situation. It can also take precedence if one purposely uses meditative techniques to get out of their heads and reconnect intuitively (another word for body knowing) with the world. The body isn't answering the question. The mind is, but expressing it as bodily action. Nothing remotely Zen about it. 😀 Everyone is free to think whatever they wish, and to express their understanding however they wish. A good sense of humor makes life a lot more fun.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 4, 2020 12:28:32 GMT -5
Exactly! Yeah, with his mind. Duh! At least Whynot understood the issue, and didn't have to use words to express it.
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Post by enigma on Jan 4, 2020 12:28:41 GMT -5
I understand that Z.D. didn't relate to thought in the same way as I did but it makes no difference because he didn't see milk as milk when asked about why he would go shopping in the first place for something that he didn't see as being that . I have spent an age giving loads of different examples of how it's not possible to do things in the ways described and he never answered me . My context has always been the same and his pointy finger reference given also fell under my same contextual umbrella and he didn't even admit to that either because he was adamant it wasn't . I never had an answer of how it is possible to understand a question that would relate to a pointy finger answer . It's been a string of dodges from the start because the initial statement was incorrect, that is why he also never answered my question about knowing that his wife is his wife and not the pet dog . These conversations had is in the top five of silly conversations had in all the time I have been here . All because there was an incorrect statement made initially and he hasn't been able to turn it around since . Not my fault, but I point out these things when peeps want to make out that I can't understand what they say or don't have a reference for that .. (can you believe the irony in that statement alone lol) I dont want to track back, but if he wants to, he can clarify. But to say, 'I see what is', is a different context to say 'I see milk'. The latter is the context of the relative/distinction/duality, the former is the context of wholeness, oneness, unity. Though this context is often subject to flaws, because it doesnt lend itself to linguistic expression. I didn't hear ZD say he doesn't see milk. I heard that from Reefs.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 4, 2020 12:29:52 GMT -5
He means 'beyond word' like a baby is 'pre-word'. But otherwise I agree, I don't think a self reference is de-activated, there's always a focus of attention or an interest playing out.Here's an interesting one for you. Talking to my wife yesterday and at the end she asked for the phone. I said, 'I don't have it'. She said, 'it's in your pocket, I gave it to you while we were talking and you put it in there'. I said, 'no, you didn't!', but I checked my pocket and it was there! That was autopilot!! I had zero knowledge of taking the phone (but agree the self reference was still present) Yeah, that's how I see it too. Rather than the reference shutting down, it likely just stays unconscious. Agreed.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 4, 2020 12:46:21 GMT -5
The body isn't answering the question. The mind is, but expressing it as bodily action. Nothing remotely Zen about it. 😀 Everyone is free to think whatever they wish, and to express their understanding however they wish. A good sense of humor makes life a lot more fun. What's that supposed to mean? I think it's a given that everyone here is expressing their views and opinions.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 4, 2020 12:47:26 GMT -5
I dont want to track back, but if he wants to, he can clarify. But to say, 'I see what is', is a different context to say 'I see milk'. The latter is the context of the relative/distinction/duality, the former is the context of wholeness, oneness, unity. Though this context is often subject to flaws, because it doesnt lend itself to linguistic expression. I didn't hear ZD say he doesn't see milk. I heard that from Reefs. I think we both said it, and probably for the same reason, though it's not that important.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 4, 2020 12:49:27 GMT -5
Yeah, with his mind. Duh! At least Whynot understood the issue, and didn't have to use words to express it. No he doesn't understand the issue and I don't think you do either. Expression is a function of mind or mental processing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 12:49:42 GMT -5
I don't know how to answer the question without words. have you heard of 'charades'? Send us a video message.... Never heard.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 12:50:22 GMT -5
I don't know how to answer the question without words. No one does. Yes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 12:51:40 GMT -5
I don't know how to answer the question without words. If you were asked how to greet someone with neither words nor silence, could you do that? The issue is one of seeing through an intellectual conundrum and responding instantly without resorting to reflective thought. It's a kind of Zen game. I never heard of such thing. And also it doesn't make any sense to me .
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