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Post by enigma on Jan 10, 2020 11:49:28 GMT -5
You make a very important point here. As you say, the question of whether your daughter or the world is real or not does not arise in the moment that you are engaging with what appears. It is taken to be real. Since the realization of what you are is happening in that same moment then why does figgles put such importance on the post moment question of discussing/contemplating (which you can and do participate in also) whether the world is real or not as if it is the experience in the moment. She is treating the post moment discussion as if it is critical in the realization of what you are in the moment. This is what I call intellectual enlightenment. I definitely don't think Figgles wouldn't dissent here.
I won't accede here. Kenning others are real or not doesn't impact anything in our life. But Kenning you can not do anything to dispense the particular situation in which you are in would put you in a surrender mode. But as long as you held the notion of 'doing a to dispense b' you keep on taking the action and that would never pull you out. Likewise, seeing through the illusion is not in vain. It impacts the experience. You are engendering your experience, you would reconstitute when you see through the illusion.
Your vocabulary has definitely improved, but your misuse of the double negative continues unabated.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 10, 2020 11:57:43 GMT -5
That's because you don't accept the potential of seeing through illusions in terms of SR. You think all that's required for SR is to meditate until you have the proper experience. What is required is to realize you are prior to experience.
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Post by enigma on Jan 10, 2020 12:06:27 GMT -5
I won't accede here. Kenning others are real or not doesn't impact anything in our life. But Kenning you can not do anything to dispense the particular situation in which you are in would put you in a surrender mode. But as long as you held the notion of 'doing a to dispense b' you keep on taking the action and that would never pull you out. Likewise, seeing through the illusion is not in vain. It impacts the experience. You are engendering your experience, you would reconstitute when you see through the illusion. Kenning? I think you mean knowing. Interestingly where I originated from in Scotland, to ken is a dialect which means to know or to understand, as in, do you ken what I'm saying?If you go into the surrender mode you don't need to start looking for illusions to see through. From the absolute perspective there is no doer but from the localized personal self perspective there is a doer so all one can say is that you are both doer and non doer as you are both limited and unlimited.Maybe if he used a kenning such as 'ken-ing', that would work? Something else one could say is that the doer is an illusion.
One cannot choose to go into surrender mode. Primarily because one is not the doer.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 10, 2020 12:12:20 GMT -5
One cannot choose to go into surrender mode. Primarily because one is not the doer. What do you think meditation or self inquiry is if not surrender?
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Post by enigma on Jan 10, 2020 12:33:23 GMT -5
You can't go into surrender mode, it's not that easy. On the contrary, it's the easiest thing you can do. But you have to keep on doing it. If you try and push a heavy object with one push you won't succeed but if you relax and then go back with another push it will start to move. Even in those terms surrender is not the 'easiest thing you can do'. It would be nothing but a Sisyphus shuffle. Surrender is not a doing but rather an expression of one's state of being, which changes only as a function of clarity. That state of being does not change through an act of will or practice. You cannot, and have not, surrendered that way. Surrender is not the result of winning the battle between struggle and surrender, it is losing interest in both and walking off the battlefield. It is an undoing.
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 10, 2020 12:37:34 GMT -5
On the contrary, it's the easiest thing you can do. But you have to keep on doing it. If you try and push a heavy object with one push you won't succeed but if you relax and then go back with another push it will start to move. Even in those terms surrender is not the 'easiest thing you can do'. It would be nothing but a Sisyphus shuffle. Surrender is not a doing but rather an expression of one's state of being, which changes only as a function of clarity. That state of being does not change through an act of will or practice. You cannot, and have not, surrendered that way. Surrender is not the result of winning the battle between struggle and surrender, it is losing interest in both and walking off the battlefield. It is an undoing. Correct. It is not a doing which is why it's the easiest thing to do. 😀
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Post by enigma on Jan 10, 2020 13:05:08 GMT -5
"Caliber, astute, kenning, erroneous, posit" is not your usual 'caliber' of vocabulary. ''cerebrate'', ''descry'', ''abaft''..... My own dictionary is getting a workout! I particularly enjoyed this... ''I concur that this question doesn't come to a mundane man'' I searched MR Google for an alternate definition of abaft to no avail. His dictionary may have led him a bit abeam on that one.
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Post by enigma on Jan 10, 2020 13:57:33 GMT -5
That's because you don't accept the potential of seeing through illusions in terms of SR. You think all that's required for SR is to meditate until you have the proper experience. What is required is to realize you are prior to experience. That's all?
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Post by enigma on Jan 10, 2020 14:00:20 GMT -5
One cannot choose to go into surrender mode. Primarily because one is not the doer. What do you think meditation or self inquiry is if not surrender? Meditation is mostly a mind game. Self inquiry is an inquiry into the self. It may or may not lead to surrender.
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Post by enigma on Jan 10, 2020 14:02:29 GMT -5
Even in those terms surrender is not the 'easiest thing you can do'. It would be nothing but a Sisyphus shuffle. Surrender is not a doing but rather an expression of one's state of being, which changes only as a function of clarity. That state of being does not change through an act of will or practice. You cannot, and have not, surrendered that way. Surrender is not the result of winning the battle between struggle and surrender, it is losing interest in both and walking off the battlefield. It is an undoing. Correct. It is not a doing which is why it's the easiest thing to do. 😀 It is why it is impossible to do.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 10, 2020 14:37:10 GMT -5
I cerebrate I don't have to dissent here.There is no authentic world consequences as a result of seeing through the vacuousness abaft the appearances. Figgles would definitely concur with you here. The question of whether my daughter is REAL or not doesn't even emerges for a second when I am verbalizing with her or visually examining her. But If someone questions me whether I ken of his/her existence, I would definitely verbalize 'No, I definitely can't ken,because there is a more preponderant possibility that you could be a mere figment of my projection'. If you descry the way we grow up from our childhood, we definitely start to believe in a material world(world subsist in itself). But a day comes, question raises, whether I am living in a material world or this world is appearing to me. I concur that this question doesn't come to a mundane man, but a person like me who commenced descrying the truth of inner somehow influences the outer would definitely arises. Once this question emerged, I commenced to contemplate as to how my perception works, Consequently I have kenned that I have never optically discerned a world which subsists independent of my perception. Immediately after this quandary the question of whether other individual who are appearing to me is genuine or a mere engenderment of me would definitely arises. You make a very important point here. As you say, the question of whether your daughter or the world is real or not does not arise in the moment that you are engaging with what appears. It is taken to be real. Since the realization of what you are is happening in that same moment then why does figgles put such importance on the post moment question of discussing/contemplating (which you can and do participate in also) whether the world is real or not as if it is the experience in the moment. She is treating the post moment discussion as if it is critical in the realization of what you are in the moment. This is what I call intellectual enlightenment. The sage sees the world and interacts with the world like anyone else except that there is the direct knowing that one is unlimited, free from the bondage of action and is not confined to the limitation of world. That reality requires no post moment discussion. It is like experiencing the pleasant warm feeling of the sun on your face but then having a discussion about where this warmth comes from, understanding how radiated heat travels through space from the sun and stimulates cells in your skin to register as heat signals which travel to your brain and arguing that you need to understand that before you can experience the reality of the sun on your face. I feel exactly the same way about this idea of seeing through the SVP. It has no relevance for the present moment realization of what you are. If you are awake you don't care a hoot about SVP or not SVP! You accept whatever arises and that may be a personal sense of self and engagement with what appears to be a real world or it may be pure objectless awareness. Who cares if one is at peace? It's all the same. I see this issue somewhat differently, but that may be because I had a very "hard-core" sense of selfhood prior to seeing that who I thought I was had never existed. This may vary from human to human, depending upon what kinds of thoughts s/he were attached to prior to seeing through the illusion of a personal identity. In my case, seeing through the illusion of the SVP had profound consequences in daily life. After realizing that there was no separate entity at the center of whatever was happening, and also realizing that there is only THIS, these things happened: 1. I could finally relax and live life free from existential questioning. The search for truth came to an end. 2. I no longer cared very much what happened next. The realization eliminated a lot of attachments, desires, expectations, and various ideas and past patterns of thought. 3. I felt at-one with THIS. It's hard to describe, but it's like a felt sense of oneness with "what is." Or, like always being at home no matter what happens. 4. A huge amount of past self-referential thought simply ceased to occur. 5. Psychologically, inside and outside disappeared, and life became a kind of unending unobstructed flow. 6. I became almost totally focused upon whatever is happening in the moment. I could probably think of some other things of a related nature, but in general, I felt like a fish that had finally escaped from its aquarium and found it was now living in an ocean. Haha! As I say, people may respond differently depending upon what they realize or experience, and what kind of thoughts they were previously attached to, but for some of us, the importance of seeing through the illusion of the SVP cannot be overstated in the effect it can have upon daily life.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 10, 2020 14:42:10 GMT -5
On the contrary, it's the easiest thing you can do. But you have to keep on doing it. If you try and push a heavy object with one push you won't succeed but if you relax and then go back with another push it will start to move. Even in those terms surrender is not the 'easiest thing you can do'. It would be nothing but a Sisyphus shuffle. Surrender is not a doing but rather an expression of one's state of being, which changes only as a function of clarity. That state of being does not change through an act of will or practice. You cannot, and have not, surrendered that way. Surrender is not the result of winning the battle between struggle and surrender, it is losing interest in both and walking off the battlefield. It is an undoing. Agreed.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 10, 2020 14:45:20 GMT -5
One cannot choose to go into surrender mode. Primarily because one is not the doer. What do you think meditation or self inquiry is if not surrender? For me it was a way to investigate the nature of reality sans thought. It was more like an experiment with consciousness driven by intense curiosity.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 10, 2020 14:47:01 GMT -5
Correct. It is not a doing which is why it's the easiest thing to do. 😀 It is why it is impossible to do. Yes. It is impossible to either do or not do via individual effort. It either happens or it doesn't happen, but it certainly can't be willed.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 10, 2020 14:58:04 GMT -5
Even in those terms surrender is not the 'easiest thing you can do'. It would be nothing but a Sisyphus shuffle. Surrender is not a doing but rather an expression of one's state of being, which changes only as a function of clarity. That state of being does not change through an act of will or practice. You cannot, and have not, surrendered that way. Surrender is not the result of winning the battle between struggle and surrender, it is losing interest in both and walking off the battlefield. It is an undoing. Correct. It is not a doing which is why it's the easiest thing to do. 😀 If that's true, why did you write that it took 30 years of meditation before you awakened? That doesn't sound like surrendering was the easiest thing to do.
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