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Post by laughter on Nov 4, 2022 6:51:26 GMT -5
Yes, the word "perfect" is problematic, but in English we have no perfect alternative (pun intended). SomeNothing's "perfectly so" may be a bit closer to the mark. To grasp the choice/no-choice issue reflect upon what's happening when life presents what can be imagined as a choice. If one does NOT think about choice, what is the result? Life continues with the kind of pure action Z described about swatting the wasp away from his mother's arm. Next, consider a human who has discovered THIS and also discovered that THIS is beyond the idea or choice or no-choice. When such a human points other people toward actions that are likely to lead to the discovery of THIS, s/he has no idea or expectation regarding what they will do (whether they will look where the finger is pointing or ignore the finger entirely). She only knows what she must do, and this knowing is direct and in most cases unmediated by thoughts. The idea that life is a kind of school is an idea. The idea that life is a spiral is an idea. The idea of upward or downward is an idea. If all such ideas are left behind, then what? This is hard to deconstruct, but I sense it somehow incorporates an over-concretisation of the conditioned. And there are certain implications of doing so. Regarding your question. Well, I suppose it depends on how consciously one is operating. If one is operating unconsciously or mindlessly to any extent, then there is the danger that what will happen is the unwitting reinforcement of the habitual/attachment through action (kamma). Which in buddhist terms is tantamount to continued binding to samsara and rebirth. Which in turn is subject to "the entire mass of stress and suffering". Regardless of whether the current state is one of relative peace masquerading as something more final. So the concern is that as far as true liberation is concerned, one may have declared too early and there may still be more going on under the hood than is recognised, which would have consequences in the biggest picture. You. Are not a machine.
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Post by farmer on Nov 4, 2022 7:03:06 GMT -5
Ordinary life.. but with an uncommon peace of mind.. free from worry stress or anxiety Yes, peace of mind is the hallmark of the natural state. I call it Bliss (Ananda) this was kinda funny I thought... yesterday while at my doctors office he was asking me standard questions about possible drug side effects... and one of them was "do you have racy thoughts?"... I laughed and said 'no! I have a quiet mind.. do you know what that is? sorry dude but its you and most everyone else being bothered by racy thoughts... I'm good!'
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Post by ouroboros on Nov 4, 2022 14:03:49 GMT -5
This is hard to deconstruct, but I sense it somehow incorporates an over-concretisation of the conditioned. And there are certain implications of doing so. Regarding your question. Well, I suppose it depends on how consciously one is operating. If one is operating unconsciously or mindlessly to any extent, then there is the danger that what will happen is the unwitting reinforcement of the habitual/attachment through action (kamma). Which in buddhist terms is tantamount to continued binding to samsara and rebirth. Which in turn is subject to "the entire mass of stress and suffering". Regardless of whether the current state is one of relative peace masquerading as something more final. So the concern is that as far as true liberation is concerned, one may have declared too early and there may still be more going on under the hood than is recognised, which would have consequences in the biggest picture. In my context, it's probably a different response than ZD's. Considerations such as these are distractions, fools gold, as if an answer will yield some significant revelation. Whether I practice by choice or no-choice seems like fodder for mind chatter. Strangely, so does the consideration of whether practice garners a result. It seems not practice then, but a mind game. Why I like Dogen. It is not practice if it is a means to an end. Practice is enlightenment. As to prematurely stepping off the cliff, it might feel like flight, but the ground is coming up fast and hard. I can't imagine though playing with a loaded deck and not knowing it. In my everywhere practice, it's within moments that I catch the effects of vasanas, conditioning. Claiming what is not, freedom, when evidence to the contrary is at hand is a level self delusion I can't fathom. It's not really about practice it's about clarity. And it depends what the goal is.
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Post by ouroboros on Nov 4, 2022 14:05:06 GMT -5
This is hard to deconstruct, but I sense it somehow incorporates an over-concretisation of the conditioned. And there are certain implications of doing so. Regarding your question. Well, I suppose it depends on how consciously one is operating. If one is operating unconsciously or mindlessly to any extent, then there is the danger that what will happen is the unwitting reinforcement of the habitual/attachment through action (kamma). Which in buddhist terms is tantamount to continued binding to samsara and rebirth. Which in turn is subject to "the entire mass of stress and suffering". Regardless of whether the current state is one of relative peace masquerading as something more final. So the concern is that as far as true liberation is concerned, one may have declared too early and there may still be more going on under the hood than is recognised, which would have consequences in the biggest picture. You. Are not a machine. Needless to say, I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2022 22:49:33 GMT -5
The feel that "you are feeling calm in the midst of traumatic events" is actually created by you to give the feel that you remain clam while in the midst of trouble. Why didn't I create a feeling of panic instead, like the others around me did for themselves? Because you believe you can remain calm in the midst of calamity but others do not believe like that. What I am pointing here is, the entire experience is falling out of infinite just to confirm your belief.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2022 23:05:22 GMT -5
Why didn't I create a feeling of panic instead, like the others around me did for themselves? Because you believe you can remain calm in the midst of calamity but others do not believe like that. What I am pointing here is, the entire experience is falling out of infinite just to confirm your belief. How could that be so because the reaction to my circumstances was far quicker and spontaneous than any belief that could be forming about how I should be reacting. Belief requires consideration and reflection. Instant reaction doesn't work like that. But what happens if someone reacts calmly to a situation one day but then on a different day reacts with anxiety to the same kind of situation. What has changed, the belief, and if so what has changed it? The explanation you are giving about why there was a particular reaction is simply unfathomable. That's what the Bhagavad Gita says. "Unfathomable is the field of action". What about if someone says, I was surprised about how calm I was. If that reaction was brought about by a belief why would they be surprised about something they already believe?
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Post by laughter on Nov 5, 2022 0:22:35 GMT -5
Needless to say, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. The idea about reinforcing the danger of the unwitting attachment through action is ultimately mechanistic. Please don't think that I don't see value in gaining clarity on the content and dynamic of the machine, I most certainly do. But this has to be known for what is.
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Post by ouroboros on Nov 5, 2022 7:51:40 GMT -5
Needless to say, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. The idea about reinforcing the danger of the unwitting attachment through action is ultimately mechanistic. Please don't think that I don't see value in gaining clarity on the content and dynamic of the machine, I most certainly do. But this has to be known for what is. Well, there is a mechanistic (or deterministic) aspect to reality. Obviously that's only half the story, which you know I often advocate. I'm not a machine-head.
But it's why we can shoot some 8-ball for example, and similalry, actions have consequences. The way I see it, there is a certain quality of action that reinforces and perpetuates kamma. Even if the result of that is imponderably intricate or even not set in stone (in the event of the ending of kamma).
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Post by laughter on Nov 5, 2022 7:58:38 GMT -5
The idea about reinforcing the danger of the unwitting attachment through action is ultimately mechanistic. Please don't think that I don't see value in gaining clarity on the content and dynamic of the machine, I most certainly do. But this has to be known for what is. Well, there is a mechanistic (or deterministic) aspect to reality. Obviously that's only half the story, which you know I often advocate. I'm not a machine-head.
But it's why we can shoot some 8-ball for example, and similalry, actions have consequences. The way I see it, there is a certain quality of action that reinforces and perpetuates kamma. Even if the result of that is imponderably intricate or even not set in stone (in the event of the ending of kamma). But you're analyzing cause and effect in the context of the the idea of "a human who has discovered THIS beyond choice and no choice". You. Are not a machine. Neither is anyone else.
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Post by ouroboros on Nov 5, 2022 9:25:10 GMT -5
Well, there is a mechanistic (or deterministic) aspect to reality. Obviously that's only half the story, which you know I often advocate. I'm not a machine-head.
But it's why we can shoot some 8-ball for example, and similalry, actions have consequences. The way I see it, there is a certain quality of action that reinforces and perpetuates kamma. Even if the result of that is imponderably intricate or even not set in stone (in the event of the ending of kamma). But you're analyzing cause and effect in the context of the the idea of "a human who has discovered THIS beyond choice and no choice". You. Are not a machine. Neither is anyone else. There is no discovery that negates the nature of conditionality. Just misconception.
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Post by laughter on Nov 5, 2022 10:49:27 GMT -5
There is no discovery that negates the nature of conditionality. Just misconception. The negation in this instance is simply a matter of form. It's not a denial. It's a contextualization.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 0:03:32 GMT -5
Because you believe you can remain calm in the midst of calamity but others do not believe like that. What I am pointing here is, the entire experience is falling out of infinite just to confirm your belief. How could that be so because the reaction to my circumstances was far quicker and spontaneous than any belief that could be forming about how I should be reacting. Belief requires consideration and reflection. Instant reaction doesn't work like that. But what happens if someone reacts calmly to a situation one day but then on a different day reacts with anxiety to the same kind of situation. What has changed, the belief, and if so what has changed it? The explanation you are giving about why there was a particular reaction is simply unfathomable. That's what the Bhagavad Gita says. "Unfathomable is the field of action". What about if someone says, I was surprised about how calm I was. If that reaction was brought about by a belief why would they be surprised about something they already believe? Universe is unfolding to confirm your belief, your reaction can't be prior to the belief. You believe something and it becomes real. Belief creates the reality. Have you ever heard of law of attraction?, Clear seeing in the mind's eye(Visualization) manifest the reality.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 2:27:58 GMT -5
How could that be so because the reaction to my circumstances was far quicker and spontaneous than any belief that could be forming about how I should be reacting. Belief requires consideration and reflection. Instant reaction doesn't work like that. But what happens if someone reacts calmly to a situation one day but then on a different day reacts with anxiety to the same kind of situation. What has changed, the belief, and if so what has changed it? The explanation you are giving about why there was a particular reaction is simply unfathomable. That's what the Bhagavad Gita says. "Unfathomable is the field of action". What about if someone says, I was surprised about how calm I was. If that reaction was brought about by a belief why would they be surprised about something they already believe? Universe is unfolding to confirm your belief, your reaction can't be prior to the belief. You believe something and it becomes real. Belief creates the reality. Have you ever heard of law of attraction?, Clear seeing in the mind's eye(Visualization) manifest the reality. I have never believed in the law of attraction except for magnets.
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