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Post by laughter on May 17, 2022 3:25:40 GMT -5
I would put it this way, there is the actual and there is the imaginary, and all boundaries are imaginary in the sense that they are abstract distinctions. Conventionally speaking, the world is seen in the same way as before but with the understanding that what people call "boundaries" are not actual lines of demarcation. Just as there is no actual dividing line between what we call "a hand" and "an arm" there are no other actual dividing lines anywhere. I always think that for the sake of balance it should be acknowledged that perception itself effectively is a process of distinction, on every level :- that is to say both sensory/psychological. What people call "boundaries" are like shifting sands. Yet we can predict what time the sun will rise tomorrow … or imagine it if you like. Balance isn't always a virtue. There really are altered states of consciousness that lend entirely new perspective on the nature of boundaries and thingness. The shift doesn't give you personal power over the way that appearances appear, but the rules of that are completely sideways to the nondual reality.
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Post by laughter on May 17, 2022 3:27:58 GMT -5
I suspect that more and more scientists are waking up to the non-dual truth of what's going on, but scientists spend a lot of time being culturally-conditioned to think about reality as if it is an objective space-time continuum populated by separate things that interact with one another in particular ways. For this reason, alone, it may be harder for scientists to penetrate the illusion of separateness. Quantum mechanics, however, is changing this way of thinking about reality because it challenges the consensus paradigm in many ways, and even if they don't understand the actual truth of the matter, most scientists at least acknowledge that somehow the observer is an integral aspect of whatever is observed. Most of them, of course, haven't yet realized that when they look at the universe, they are looking at themselves. Fortunately, it is not necessary to correct the science to be free of duality. What we are is already non-dual, and a particular realization can make that obvious regardless of what scientists think. Just pointing out that scientists views on reality aren't monolithic. They come in many flavors including logical positivists, but not exclusively. It is interesting to me how ideology seems to taint almost everything now. I prefer Baghavan's advice about reforming the world, that you start with yourself. It is so hard to do though. Thing is (and I know this doesn't follow 1:1 directly from this post of yours, but I've been reading along) that even a science based on the primacy of consciousness over matter, is still, well, science.
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Post by zazeniac on May 17, 2022 8:30:17 GMT -5
Just pointing out that scientists views on reality aren't monolithic. They come in many flavors including logical positivists, but not exclusively. It is interesting to me how ideology seems to taint almost everything now. I prefer Baghavan's advice about reforming the world, that you start with yourself. It is so hard to do though. Thing is (and I know this doesn't follow 1:1 directly from this post of yours, but I've been reading along) that even a science based on the primacy of consciousness over matter, is still, well, science. I think that's Schrodinger's point. That a science of consciousness is not possible. What I'm saying is that there are scientists who realize the limitations of science. That they are not all logical positivists. That they believe there are truths that are unprovable.
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Post by zazeniac on May 17, 2022 8:40:06 GMT -5
Think Baghavan was referring to self inquiry in this. Turning focus away from mental objects. I like the way Hedderman phrases it "living in what's not happening;" it's the opposite, of course. Just being. Silent. If you sincerely want to be more connected to feeling and being in the energy of this moment then you will be. Activating the conceptual mind and then using it to say you don't want to activate it, just looks like misuse to me.. and yeah you might want such ventures to end. That's the crux of the matter. The dilemma. Silencing the mind with the mind. It's very similar to balancing, where the mind is focused but not on the balancing. If it tries to balance, you fall.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2022 8:59:20 GMT -5
If you sincerely want to be more connected to feeling and being in the energy of this moment then you will be. Activating the conceptual mind and then using it to say you don't want to activate it, just looks like misuse to me.. and yeah you might want such ventures to end. That's the crux of the matter. The dilemma. Silencing the mind with the mind. It's very similar to balancing, where the mind is focused but not on the balancing. If it tries to balance, you fall. My hairdresser told me that other day that when one has become really anxious, and is almost in panic attack territory. Stand on one leg.
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Post by sree on May 17, 2022 10:45:01 GMT -5
Good question. Yes, I'm convinced about the shift from a personal to impersonal/personal (we have no exact words for pointing to the result of the shift ) perspective because that's what happened here on August 17, 1999 after hiking in the mountains while contemplating how such a shift to a non-dual unity-consciosness perspective could become permanent. This organism had had what I call a "hard-core" sense of selfhood that was probably a result of strongly identifying with numerous interests. It felt as if "I" was an entity inside the body, or inside the head, looking out of the eyes at an external world. On that day I/THIS had a deep emotional experience of extreme gratitude which left me feeling peaceful and buoyant. A few hours later I/THIS looked "inside" and the past sense of a "me" had totally vanished. It suddenly became obvious that there had never been a "me," and that the past sense of being a separate volitional entity had been a total illusion. Furthermore, the psychologically-felt boundary between inside and outside had also disappeared, and all that remained was a body/mind organism looking at the world. I/THIS then realized that the actual doer of everything was always the process of reality, which is a unified infinite field of being that I now refer to as "THIS." It can be called "God," "Tao," Self," "the Unborn," "Source," or "The Absolute." THIS is what sees, hears, thinks, walks, and talks in the form of humans, and it is what causes flowers to bloom in the Spring. Seeing the truth ended the spiritual search for understanding and resulted in psychological freedom and a sense of "flow." After the sense of a separate "me" vanished, a felt sense of simple beingness, or oneness with "what is," is what remained, and life continued just as before but without all of the past self-referential thought patterns of the past. What I realized that day, and what became more and more embodied over the last 22 years, is that THIS takes care of everything and THIS runs the whole show. Every human, animal, plant, rock, star, and galaxy is THIS, and THIS is what causes a human heart to beat 100,000 times per day from birth until the body dies. Any human who discovers THIS instantly loses all fear of death because it is seen that THIS is beyond birth and death. Because this organism has pursued a particular meditative activity for more than 35 years, the mind is now extremely silent, and I/THIS often drives a car in silence. The other day a car/THIS coming toward me/THIS in the opposing lane began drifting across the center line toward my car/THIS. In total mental silence THIS began defensively steering the car toward the right shoulder of the road, and would probably have left the road completely and driven into an adjacent field if the driver/THIS of the oncoming car had not noticed what was happening and swerved back into the "correct"lane. There was no "me" involved in anything that happened. If the mind becomes silent, it becomes obvious that THIS is the actual doer of everything. Any human who discovers THIS can relax and simply be what one already is and has always been. What you are is also THIS, and to discover this simple truth just become still and watch. You can't go wrong no matter what you do, because what you actually are is taking care of everything. Cheers! What's is so funny about a serious conversation zendancer is having with me, laughter?
What is your take on reality?
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Post by laughter on May 17, 2022 14:44:58 GMT -5
What's is so funny about a serious conversation zendancer is having with me, laughter?
What is your take on reality?
THIS driving headlong into THIS forcing THIS off the road is amusing because all ended well. The absence of the internal reaction while THIS outwardly "reacted" is one of those "you kinda' had to not be there to have got it" deals. No disrespect intended as to your dialog.
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Post by laughter on May 17, 2022 14:47:46 GMT -5
That's the crux of the matter. The dilemma. Silencing the mind with the mind. It's very similar to balancing, where the mind is focused but not on the balancing. If it tries to balance, you fall. My hairdresser told me that other day that when one has become really anxious, and is almost in panic attack territory. Stand on one leg. Good way to straighten the spine too. One of the very few yoga poses I know, the "tree".
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Post by sree on May 17, 2022 16:39:11 GMT -5
What's is so funny about a serious conversation zendancer is having with me, laughter?
What is your take on reality?
THIS driving headlong into THIS forcing THIS off the road is amusing because all ended well. The absence of the internal reaction while THIS outwardly "reacted" is one of those "you kinda' had to not be there to have got it" deals. No disrespect intended as to your dialog. It can be a pain in the butt trying to speak from the other shore using English, the language of we guys on this shore. The Buddha would split our sides if he were to try teaching the dharma to Americans today. Haha.
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Post by sree on May 17, 2022 16:39:45 GMT -5
THIS driving headlong into THIS forcing THIS off the road is amusing because all ended well. The absence of the internal reaction while THIS outwardly "reacted" is one of those "you kinda' had to not be there to have got it" deals. No disrespect intended as to your dialog. It can be a pain in the butt trying to speak from the other shore using English, the language of we guys on this shore. The Buddha would split our sides too if he were to try teaching the dharma to Americans today. Haha.
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Post by sree on May 17, 2022 17:05:12 GMT -5
Just pointing out that scientists views on reality aren't monolithic. They come in many flavors including logical positivists, but not exclusively. It is interesting to me how ideology seems to taint almost everything now. I prefer Baghavan's advice about reforming the world, that you start with yourself. It is so hard to do though. Why do you say that scientists' views on reality are not monolithic? As a matter of fact, everybody's views (including scientists') on reality are monolithic. We all see the same thing; otherwise, we couldn't communicate and collaborate to build a supertanker, the Global Positioning System, and a financial system that connects markets across multiple time zones.
Baghavan would be shocked if he reincarnated today and witness monolithic unity-consciousness in full play.
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Post by zazeniac on May 17, 2022 19:17:32 GMT -5
Just pointing out that scientists views on reality aren't monolithic. They come in many flavors including logical positivists, but not exclusively. It is interesting to me how ideology seems to taint almost everything now. I prefer Baghavan's advice about reforming the world, that you start with yourself. It is so hard to do though. Why do you say that scientists' views on reality are not monolithic? As a matter of fact, everybody's views (including scientists') on reality are monolithic. We all see the same thing; otherwise, we couldn't communicate and collaborate to build a supertanker, the Global Positioning System, and a financial system that connects markets across multiple time zones.
Baghavan would be shocked if he reincarnated today and witness monolithic unity-consciousness in full play. I worked on the GPS IIF satellite program in Seal Beach, CA and then in El Segundo. I can tell you that many of the designers were born again Christians, some were Buddhists, others were Catholic. I would say Atheists were a minority. These groups have very different views about what's real. Wouldn't you say?
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Post by sree on May 17, 2022 22:13:00 GMT -5
Why do you say that scientists' views on reality are not monolithic? As a matter of fact, everybody's views (including scientists') on reality are monolithic. We all see the same thing; otherwise, we couldn't communicate and collaborate to build a supertanker, the Global Positioning System, and a financial system that connects markets across multiple time zones.
Baghavan would be shocked if he reincarnated today and witness monolithic unity-consciousness in full play. I worked on the GPS IIF satellite program in Seal Beach, CA and then in El Segundo. I can tell you that many of the designers were born again Christians, some were Buddhists, others were Catholic. I would say Atheists were a minority. These groups have very different views about what's real. Wouldn't you say? What does that tell you? The self is a state of delusion. Every self is locked into the same existential reality regardless of spiritual affliation. Look at the freeways jam-packed with cars driven by Catholics, Buddhists, Atheists, etc., a herd of cattle moving to the same beat. And they all use US Dollars.
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Post by zazeniac on May 18, 2022 1:43:20 GMT -5
I worked on the GPS IIF satellite program in Seal Beach, CA and then in El Segundo. I can tell you that many of the designers were born again Christians, some were Buddhists, others were Catholic. I would say Atheists were a minority. These groups have very different views about what's real. Wouldn't you say? What does that tell you? The self is a state of delusion. Every self is locked into the same existential reality regardless of spiritual affliation. Look at the freeways jam-packed with cars driven by Catholics, Buddhists, Atheists, etc., a herd of cattle moving to the same beat. And they all use US Dollars. Tells me that scientists like freeway drivers come in many flavors. "Herd of cattle?" I hear that a lot nowadays. It's always a judgement, never a confession. "Those folk over there are cattle, not me." Makes me smile. Talk about delusion! Like Hedderman likes to say "the party sucks, cause 'I' keep showing up." Peace.
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Post by sree on May 18, 2022 17:59:25 GMT -5
What does that tell you? The self is a state of delusion. Every self is locked into the same existential reality regardless of spiritual affliation. Look at the freeways jam-packed with cars driven by Catholics, Buddhists, Atheists, etc., a herd of cattle moving to the same beat. And they all use US Dollars. Tells me that scientists like freeway drivers come in many flavors. "Herd of cattle?" I hear that a lot nowadays. It's always a judgement, never a confession. "Those folk over there are cattle, not me." Makes me smile. Talk about delusion! Like Hedderman likes to say "the party sucks, cause 'I' keep showing up." Peace. Don't be mad at me, zazeniac. I am just pointing out that regardless of spiritual "flavors", everybody gets smacked on the pavement when jumping off a building. Reality is that monolithic no matter what your spirit tastes like on the astral plane.
To me, reality and spirituality are not mutually exclusive dimensions. A Buddhist or Hindu physicist needs his head checked for loose screws. In the east, the ancients had integrity. No double talk. They were lucky. Reality was yet to be screwed up by science. The mischief began when some idiot managed to win the argument that it was the Earth that was spinning around the Sun and not the other way round. There was no turning back when we landed on the moon. Science became the hegemonic God of all mankind. Religion which was central to human life became an elective subject. Yeah, various flavors. Take your pick. Gravity is monolithic even for the Mahaguru deep in eternal nature on a Boeing 737 flying from Mumbai to New York.
I am the one who insist that our consensus worldview, which informs our perception of reality, is monolithic. But I am not part of the herd. I know why we perceive reality the way we do. I am the herd and the herd is me. But I am not cattle. Or should I say, I am not a human being living on planet Earth. Do you get the drift?
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