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Post by zendancer on Jul 15, 2019 15:05:46 GMT -5
The only thing that I would add is that in what we call "the natural state" there's no need to "stop doing and see it as it is;" any reactivity that occurs is just the normal functioning of THIS. Reflectivity about reactivity doesn't even happen. Life just flows along without the idea of either control or no control, volition or no volition. If irritation occurs, irritation, and if no irritation occurs, no irritation. Everything is accepted as it is without reflection about an entity that is separate from what's happening. Mostly, it's been discussed in the context of being a conscious seeker, but you raise the question, what is "the normal functioning of THIS"? Irritation may be normal, but what about anger? Fear may be normal, but what about terror? Are unconscious reactions to past hurts normal for THIS. After all, you are THIS expressing in the world as an individual. What sort of expression might we expect once this is known to be the case? Any expectation would have to ignore the mysteriousness and unpredictability of THIS. There's simply no way to know what will happen next or how anyone will act. Ko Bong was an enlightened alcoholic. Niz was an enlightened chain smoker. Countless sages who've preached celibacy have had sex with their students. Seung Sahn once became extremely angry with a student who asked him if he needed some money for a trip. Many people think that Jesus was peaceful, but one day he violently overturned the tables of the money changers outside the temple. Countless more such examples could be provided. Paraphrasing Seng S'tan, "Expectations are a disease of the mind." |
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Post by enigma on Jul 15, 2019 19:13:27 GMT -5
Yes, it's actually true of any pain. Something relatively minor, such as a headache, can become simply sensation, not experienced as painful. The mind creates the pain. The way I like to put it is that mind creates the suffering, while the pain is just a fact that's happening, for as long as it's happening. The suffering can make the pain worse, and extend it, and there's really no reason to be neutral about the pain, unless one is just beginning to become conscious of the content and structure of their mind and how it relates to what they think is their body. As I see it, that which is deemed pain is already suffering by virtue of the deeming. In the example I gave, pain actually turns to sensation and is no longer regarded as pain. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 15, 2019 19:28:41 GMT -5
I will be very interested in sca's response. Non doership and not self are not beliefs. That's why it's clear. That's the clarity. The belief to which I was referring is that there is no release of impurities and karmic tendencies because there is no volition. That belief is false. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 15, 2019 19:38:51 GMT -5
Mostly, it's been discussed in the context of being a conscious seeker, but you raise the question, what is "the normal functioning of THIS"? Irritation may be normal, but what about anger? Fear may be normal, but what about terror? Are unconscious reactions to past hurts normal for THIS. After all, you are THIS expressing in the world as an individual. What sort of expression might we expect once this is known to be the case? Any expectation would have to ignore the mysteriousness and unpredictability of THIS. There's simply no way to know what will happen next or how anyone will act. Ko Bong was an enlightened alcoholic. Niz was an enlightened chain smoker. Countless sages who've preached celibacy have had sex with their students. Seung Sahn once became extremely angry with a student who asked him if he needed some money for a trip. Many people think that Jesus was peaceful, but one day he violently overturned the tables of the money changers outside the temple. Countless more such examples could be provided. Paraphrasing Seng S'tan, "Expectations are a disease of the mind." I place 'mystery' at a higher level of being than physical expression. I see no mystery in addictive habits, enjoyment of sex, or affronts to one's dignity or sense of the sacred. The mystery at the moment is how the absence of a self image could result in indignation. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 15, 2019 21:37:31 GMT -5
Any expectation would have to ignore the mysteriousness and unpredictability of THIS. There's simply no way to know what will happen next or how anyone will act. Ko Bong was an enlightened alcoholic. Niz was an enlightened chain smoker. Countless sages who've preached celibacy have had sex with their students. Seung Sahn once became extremely angry with a student who asked him if he needed some money for a trip. Many people think that Jesus was peaceful, but one day he violently overturned the tables of the money changers outside the temple. Countless more such examples could be provided. Paraphrasing Seng S'tan, "Expectations are a disease of the mind." I place 'mystery' at a higher level of being than physical expression. I see no mystery in addictive habits, enjoyment of sex, or affronts to one's dignity or sense of the sacred. The mystery at the moment is how the absence of a self image could result in indignation. The question was about expectations, and regarding that issue I'm like Papaji who often responded to questions about how THIS might be expected to manifest in the future with, "Wait and see." I don't think any hard and fast rules apply to how THIS may manifest. |
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Post by lolly on Jul 15, 2019 22:08:41 GMT -5
In my training it was said that mindstates as you describe are common enough, but you then come back to the fullness of sensation after a time, and perhaps then crave a repeat experience. Then meditations become for the purpose to experience what they desire, and rather than practice equanimity, it becomes the practice of craving. That's the difference between seeing it 'as it is' and making it 'as you want it to be'. Makes sense. Sounds like sound advice.  There's a meditation that one can do if they ever get a charlie horse. Just let the intense pain flow through you. It's over more quickly if it isn't resisted. During my training I would just stay still regardless of pain, and after I learned to cease the distressful reactions, I started to enjoy it like a well seasoned masochist... teehee |
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Post by lolly on Jul 15, 2019 22:19:20 GMT -5
They say that depending on the extreme of the reaction, the sankara is proportionally deeper etched in the mind, so people who endured severe abuses might have patricularly severe sorrows and lamentations to resolve, but I dare say everyone has their fair share of things hidden away where conscious awareness avoids. Blatant example is how some people drink heavily to avoid psychological torment... but people have all kinds of distractions based on what has always worked in the past... and this is an aversion to one rising sensation and desire for another. The grog is only a means, but the actual objects of desire and aversion are the sensations. I don't think it's particularly relevant how deep the wounds are, but when the extremes of these come into conscious awareness mindful equanimity becomes difficult because the tendency to react is habitual and it has always worked to avoid said difficult arisings in the past. One needs to be deliberate in seeing it 'as it is' in the way it happens to be because this current arising was generated a long time ago and has been carried within the life form, albeit avoided, ever since. When one becomes deliberate about equanimity, they notice the avoidance reaction strategy before it gets too far out of hand and are able to maintain their composure as a neutral observer as the emotional storm reaches full force and then passes away. The only difference it, this time the meditator did not react and the whole avoidance mechanism stopped. Next time a memory of the traumatic occasion arises one will find there might be remnants of the trauma, but not enough to rattle the person so much, and after a time, the occasion will remain true, it happened, but no longer have any traumatic, reactive effect. Once the reactive tendency has subsided at that level, and one retains equanimity with it, of course the mind goes deeper into the lifeform to a subtler level than before, and again, with pure awareness, the purification continues at a deeper level. People will transcend, or bypass if you like, but they will come back to any reactive process still wound up in the lifeform so it can 'come to light' and dissolve away, so it seems to be necessary to peer 'all the way through' to release the 'impurities' created by volitions past and subsequently held on to - and so far as I can tell, there no way to bypass, or IOW, avoid it.
. As a kid I almost never went barefoot but once I happened to be outside a barn where the cows gathered to enter, barefoot. I stepped on a piece of broken glass and cut the bottom of my foot. It wasn't too bad and healed over. But a few days after it healed over my foot became very painful. I had to be taken to the doctor who said my foot had abscessed, from the outside it looked OK, but there was infection inside. I still have an X scar, about 5/8" by 5/8", on the bottom of my foot where the doctor cut to get to the abscess. The impurities have to be dealt with at some point. Yes. Nice analogy |
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Post by lolly on Jul 15, 2019 22:42:10 GMT -5
The way I like to put it is that mind creates the suffering, while the pain is just a fact that's happening, for as long as it's happening. The suffering can make the pain worse, and extend it, and there's really no reason to be neutral about the pain, unless one is just beginning to become conscious of the content and structure of their mind and how it relates to what they think is their body. As I see it, that which is deemed pain is already suffering by virtue of the deeming. In the example I gave, pain actually turns to sensation and is no longer regarded as pain. We can call it pain because it's an intense sensation, but typically, we don't disassociate the sensation from the adverse reactivity of the mind. Without that distress it is still the same, the sensation is intense, but the person has stopped the association of me my mine and I, and is aware of it 'as it is' - as 'this'. In the texts on mindfulness, that is expressed like: 'Now his awareness is established: "This is body!" Thus he develops his awareness to such an extent that there is mere understanding along with mere awareness. In this way he dwells detached, without clinging towards anything in the world" |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 9:22:36 GMT -5
Pain is a consummate teacher, but anesthesia is useful.
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Post by laughter on Jul 16, 2019 10:43:40 GMT -5
The way I like to put it is that mind creates the suffering, while the pain is just a fact that's happening, for as long as it's happening. The suffering can make the pain worse, and extend it, and there's really no reason to be neutral about the pain, unless one is just beginning to become conscious of the content and structure of their mind and how it relates to what they think is their body. As I see it, that which is deemed pain is already suffering by virtue of the deeming. In the example I gave, pain actually turns to sensation and is no longer regarded as pain. Can directly relate to that as well. One day on the slopes it started raining halfway down a long run. Not a downpour but not an intermittent drizzle either. By the next run I was like .. "hey, let that happen again". But there's a difference between a dull ache and a splitting migraine, just as there's a difference between a paper cut and a third degree burn, and out at the possible limits of intensity of sensation, the pain/suffering dichotomy loses it's efficacy to convey dualistic meaning. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 16, 2019 10:48:05 GMT -5
Mostly, it's been discussed in the context of being a conscious seeker, but you raise the question, what is "the normal functioning of THIS"? Irritation may be normal, but what about anger? Fear may be normal, but what about terror? Are unconscious reactions to past hurts normal for THIS. After all, you are THIS expressing in the world as an individual. What sort of expression might we expect once this is known to be the case? Any expectation would have to ignore the mysteriousness and unpredictability of THIS. There's simply no way to know what will happen next or how anyone will act. Ko Bong was an enlightened alcoholic. Niz was an enlightened chain smoker. Countless sages who've preached celibacy have had sex with their students. Seung Sahn once became extremely angry with a student who asked him if he needed some money for a trip. Many people think that Jesus was peaceful, but one day he violently overturned the tables of the money changers outside the temple. Countless more such examples could be provided. Paraphrasing Seng S'tan, "Expectations are a disease of the mind." There does seem to me though a sort of one-way street involved in this, in that while we can't put a box around the infinite, we can look at some outcomes, after-the-fact, and understand that identification with form was involved. For instance, out at one extreme, some people will sometimes flat-out admit to a terror at the thought of not existing. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 16, 2019 10:51:06 GMT -5
Makes sense. Sounds like sound advice. There's a meditation that one can do if they ever get a charlie horse. Just let the intense pain flow through you. It's over more quickly if it isn't resisted. During my training I would just stay still regardless of pain, and after I learned to cease the distressful reactions, I started to enjoy it like a well seasoned masochist... teehee |
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Post by enigma on Jul 16, 2019 21:32:23 GMT -5
I place 'mystery' at a higher level of being than physical expression. I see no mystery in addictive habits, enjoyment of sex, or affronts to one's dignity or sense of the sacred. The mystery at the moment is how the absence of a self image could result in indignation. The question was about expectations, and regarding that issue I'm like Papaji who often responded to questions about how THIS might be expected to manifest in the future with, "Wait and see." I don't think any hard and fast rules apply to how THIS may manifest. Are there any soft and slow rules? By and large, human behavior is very predictable. Threaten what a human values most and he will likely become inhumane. Offer him what he values most and he may become valueless unto himself. It is the same throughout history the world over. Humanity operates by simple rules because he is ruled by a merciless self interest. So I ask again, what of the one who has no self interest because he has no self? |
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Post by enigma on Jul 16, 2019 21:50:33 GMT -5
As I see it, that which is deemed pain is already suffering by virtue of the deeming. In the example I gave, pain actually turns to sensation and is no longer regarded as pain. We can call it pain because it's an intense sensation, but typically, we don't disassociate the sensation from the adverse reactivity of the mind. Without that distress it is still the same, the sensation is intense, but the person has stopped the association of me my mine and I, and is aware of it 'as it is' - as 'this'. In the texts on mindfulness, that is expressed like: 'Now his awareness is established: "This is body!" Thus he develops his awareness to such an extent that there is mere understanding along with mere awareness. In this way he dwells detached, without clinging towards anything in the world" In my experience what causes sensation to cross the threshold from pleasure to pain, is precisely intensity. (A pleasurable massage can quickly become a violent intrusion. The sweet smell of the forest can easily become the stench of rotting bio-matter) In my personal example of non-resistance, it is the intensity that lessens until the pain is mere sensation. This is the consequence of 'stopping the association' because that intensity is happening in the mind. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 16, 2019 21:52:24 GMT -5
Pain is a consummate teacher, but anesthesia is useful. Teachers can be painful too.  |
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There's a meditation that one can do if they ever get a charlie horse. Just let the intense pain flow through you. It's over more quickly if it isn't resisted.