|
Post by satchitananda on May 21, 2019 9:12:06 GMT -5
Which is why I addressed it to ten_ten. Ah now I know who ten_ten is. I thought it was a typo.😀
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on May 21, 2019 10:21:39 GMT -5
The word "practice" carries the connotation of being an activity that's pursued in order to improve something or get something other than what's already here and now. This is why many Advaita sages refute the usual idea of practice as something that will lead to something else, such as enlightenment. I've heard Zen teachers say, "The best form of meditation is one that isn't motivated by any 'gaining idea' or idea of progress." ATST, meditation is often pursued to attain peace of mind, and even if it doesn't result in total peace of mind, it will often lead to noticeably greater peace of mind. Why meditate? As ZMSS used to say, "If you open your mouth to respond, you've already made a mistake." This is the very opposite of the meaning of ("spiritual") practice. (I would say zazeniac is talking about here) practice in the meaning of Dogen, "Practice is enlightenment, enlightenment is practice". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (ATA-T is a practice). I understand all of these issues, but they're not worth arguing about. Zen is full of spiritual athletes, and even Adya admits to having been one. I can't tell you how many people I've met in the Zen tradition who've said these kinds of things: 1. I've been practicing for five years and nothing has happened yet 2. I have no idea why I'm doing this crazy practice 3. I've practiced for two years and my mind talk hasn't slowed down a bit 4. I know that I need to practice much harder, so I'm going to do a 90 day silent retreat to force myself to become more present 5. I've been practicing for over a year and I've hated every minute of it 6. I'm going up to the cave above the retreat center, and do a seven day fast while meditating (stated with great pride) 7. It's very important to hold your hands in exactly the right position while meditating 8. I used to love to read, but my teacher told me to stop doing that, so that's what I did 9. I'm a Buddhist, so I don't have opinions (in response to a question about which way to install a piece of plywood) Dogen's personal koan was a good one, but I wonder how many people ever resolve it? If everyone is already enlightened, why is any kind of practice necessary? This koan cannot be answered correctly with words, but many people don;t know that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 11:38:37 GMT -5
Yes I'd go along with your interpretation of what Ramana said. I think you'll find it was Jaspa who used the word death. I did not. Which is why I addressed it to ten_ten. It is now here, 10:10 You're most welcome.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2019 6:44:54 GMT -5
This is the very opposite of the meaning of ("spiritual") practice. (I would say zazeniac is talking about here) practice in the meaning of Dogen, "Practice is enlightenment, enlightenment is practice". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (ATA-T is a practice). I understand all of these issues, but they're not worth arguing about. Zen is full of spiritual athletes, and even Adya admits to having been one. I can't tell you how many people I've met in the Zen tradition who've said these kinds of things: 1. I've been practicing for five years and nothing has happened yet 2. I have no idea why I'm doing this crazy practice 3. I've practiced for two years and my mind talk hasn't slowed down a bit 4. I know that I need to practice much harder, so I'm going to do a 90 day silent retreat to force myself to become more present 5. I've been practicing for over a year and I've hated every minute of it 6. I'm going up to the cave above the retreat center, and do a seven day fast while meditating (stated with great pride) 7. It's very important to hold your hands in exactly the right position while meditating 8. I used to love to read, but my teacher told me to stop doing that, so that's what I did 9. I'm a Buddhist, so I don't have opinions (in response to a question about which way to install a piece of plywood) Dogen's personal koan was a good one, but I wonder how many people ever resolve it? If everyone is already enlightened, why is any kind of practice necessary? This koan cannot be answered correctly with words, but many people don;t know that. The notion of a batting average for a particular path is silly. Zen didn't do the job for you. Advaita did. Leave it at that. Just being on this forum and engaging in the zany antics here is ample proof that satch is right. It is a rare thing this enlightenment, even for Advaitins. You have folks trying to convince you that cause-effect isn't real, unable to admit or see that in the very act of convincing they contradict themselves. The list I could write about confused and confusing non dualists is much longer than the one you offer. The notion of practice that I proposed comes from the instruction to let the practice move into living. This was shown in walking meditation and encouraged so that even putting away the tea cups was practice.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on May 22, 2019 7:24:51 GMT -5
I understand all of these issues, but they're not worth arguing about. Zen is full of spiritual athletes, and even Adya admits to having been one. I can't tell you how many people I've met in the Zen tradition who've said these kinds of things: 1. I've been practicing for five years and nothing has happened yet 2. I have no idea why I'm doing this crazy practice 3. I've practiced for two years and my mind talk hasn't slowed down a bit 4. I know that I need to practice much harder, so I'm going to do a 90 day silent retreat to force myself to become more present 5. I've been practicing for over a year and I've hated every minute of it 6. I'm going up to the cave above the retreat center, and do a seven day fast while meditating (stated with great pride) 7. It's very important to hold your hands in exactly the right position while meditating 8. I used to love to read, but my teacher told me to stop doing that, so that's what I did 9. I'm a Buddhist, so I don't have opinions (in response to a question about which way to install a piece of plywood) Dogen's personal koan was a good one, but I wonder how many people ever resolve it? If everyone is already enlightened, why is any kind of practice necessary? This koan cannot be answered correctly with words, but many people don;t know that. The notion of a batting average for a particular path is silly. Zen didn't do the job for you. Advaita did. Leave it at that. Just being on this forum and engaging in the zany antics here is ample proof that satch is right. It is a rare thing this enlightenment, even for Advaitins. You have folks trying to convince you that cause-effect isn't real, unable to admit or see that in the very act of convincing they contradict themselves. The list I could write about confused and confusing non dualists is much longer than the one you offer. The notion of practice that I proposed comes from the instruction to let the practice move into living. This was shown in walking meditation and encouraged so that even putting away the tea cups was practice. Are you talking about wei wuwei (爲無爲)?
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on May 22, 2019 7:35:36 GMT -5
I'm no SuperPeep TM, I'm just a regular dude. Can you explain this SuperPeep TM to me? It always seemed to me it was a term you've coined in order to mock a certain group of people but recently it seems to have more serious connotations when you use it.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on May 22, 2019 12:42:14 GMT -5
I understand all of these issues, but they're not worth arguing about. Zen is full of spiritual athletes, and even Adya admits to having been one. I can't tell you how many people I've met in the Zen tradition who've said these kinds of things: 1. I've been practicing for five years and nothing has happened yet 2. I have no idea why I'm doing this crazy practice 3. I've practiced for two years and my mind talk hasn't slowed down a bit 4. I know that I need to practice much harder, so I'm going to do a 90 day silent retreat to force myself to become more present 5. I've been practicing for over a year and I've hated every minute of it 6. I'm going up to the cave above the retreat center, and do a seven day fast while meditating (stated with great pride) 7. It's very important to hold your hands in exactly the right position while meditating 8. I used to love to read, but my teacher told me to stop doing that, so that's what I did 9. I'm a Buddhist, so I don't have opinions (in response to a question about which way to install a piece of plywood) Dogen's personal koan was a good one, but I wonder how many people ever resolve it? If everyone is already enlightened, why is any kind of practice necessary? This koan cannot be answered correctly with words, but many people don;t know that. The notion of a batting average for a particular path is silly. Zen didn't do the job for you. Advaita did. Leave it at that. Just being on this forum and engaging in the zany antics here is ample proof that satch is right. It is a rare thing this enlightenment, even for Advaitins. You have folks trying to convince you that cause-effect isn't real, unable to admit or see that in the very act of convincing they contradict themselves. The list I could write about confused and confusing non dualists is much longer than the one you offer. The notion of practice that I proposed comes from the instruction to let the practice move into living. This was shown in walking meditation and encouraged so that even putting away the tea cups was practice. Actually, Zen was very helpful. Not only were the silent retreats helpful (by bringing up various issues that I didn't even know existed and by supporting deeper and more sustained periods of silence than my usual practices) but the teachers also helped me realize just how unclear I was about many things. The other thing the Zen format did was trigger many questions about practice in general. As a big-picture guy, I was interested in how meditation practice related to everyday life, and I wondered if it would be necessary to do a formal practice forever. Even when I was doing formal sitting practice it seemed crazy to me that the Zen teachers I encountered focused so much on no movement, perfect posture, etc, and that's saying a lot when one considers that the tradition I was in was way looser than the Soto tradition! Fortunately, from my POV, my experimentation with many different meditative methods eventually convinced me that the informal ATA-T that I pursued during daily life was probably more efficacious in the long run than the formal sitting I was doing simply because I could do it much more often and for longer periods of time. I was pretty sure that the silent attentiveness, alone, was what triggered realizations, so eventually I quit going on Zen retreats and just did my own thing (primarily ATA-T). Admittedly, I found Advaita retreats to be a lot more fun because they didn't care whether you sat in a rocking chair, or went hiking in the woods. They also didn't care whether anyone came to satsang or chose to be alone, so it was just a much more relaxed and easy going retreat style. The only thing that was similar to Zen was the requirement to remain silent.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on May 22, 2019 14:13:37 GMT -5
I'm no SuperPeep TM, I'm just a regular dude. Can you explain this SuperPeep TM to me? It always seemed to me it was a term you've coined in order to mock a certain group of people but recently it seems to have more serious connotations when you use it. yes, you've nailed it. It's like that picture of the duck/bunny: on one hand, it's a zany bit of comedy, but on the other, it's alluding to self-inquiry. The funny part is also twofold, but not as a union of opposites. The joke about how some folks imagine what life is like post-realization is the obvious part - they think it's the perpetugasm or sainthood or, for some, literal superpowers. But the flip side to that is a sort of Cassandra syndrome. Material loss and scarcity just doesn't register the way it used to, but there's no way to really explain that to someone on the other side of the looking glass. You tell them the good news about the end of suffering, and what they hear is that you're emotionally dissociated and recklessly jay-walking, so they want to hit you with something blunt or poke you with something sharp to show you the error of your ways. At the root of this is the question, "who, or what, gets enlightened?" - most often framed as the question about free-will in one form or another. And yeah, that's about as serious as a topic could ever be.
And p.s.: it seems very common to me that some of the folks who are still questioning don't pose the questions as questions, but rather, assertions that they then go on to debate about. This strikes me as a form of Jed's "spiritual autolysis".
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 22, 2019 15:33:33 GMT -5
I understand all of these issues, but they're not worth arguing about. Zen is full of spiritual athletes, and even Adya admits to having been one. I can't tell you how many people I've met in the Zen tradition who've said these kinds of things: 1. I've been practicing for five years and nothing has happened yet 2. I have no idea why I'm doing this crazy practice 3. I've practiced for two years and my mind talk hasn't slowed down a bit 4. I know that I need to practice much harder, so I'm going to do a 90 day silent retreat to force myself to become more present 5. I've been practicing for over a year and I've hated every minute of it 6. I'm going up to the cave above the retreat center, and do a seven day fast while meditating (stated with great pride) 7. It's very important to hold your hands in exactly the right position while meditating 8. I used to love to read, but my teacher told me to stop doing that, so that's what I did 9. I'm a Buddhist, so I don't have opinions (in response to a question about which way to install a piece of plywood) Dogen's personal koan was a good one, but I wonder how many people ever resolve it? If everyone is already enlightened, why is any kind of practice necessary? This koan cannot be answered correctly with words, but many people don;t know that. The notion of a batting average for a particular path is silly. Zen didn't do the job for you. Advaita did. Leave it at that. Just being on this forum and engaging in the zany antics here is ample proof that satch is right. It is a rare thing this enlightenment, even for Advaitins. You have folks trying to convince you that cause-effect isn't real, unable to admit or see that in the very act of convincing they contradict themselves. The list I could write about confused and confusing non dualists is much longer than the one you offer. The notion of practice that I proposed comes from the instruction to let the practice move into living. This was shown in walking meditation and encouraged so that even putting away the tea cups was practice. Yes. You understand and value what you are doing, thus extending time-spent-in. I find it a little peculiar that zd does not make a distinction between one state and another, or value one state over another. (It seems this can be said about most here also). But to each his own.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on May 22, 2019 16:40:25 GMT -5
The notion of a batting average for a particular path is silly. Zen didn't do the job for you. Advaita did. Leave it at that. Just being on this forum and engaging in the zany antics here is ample proof that satch is right. It is a rare thing this enlightenment, even for Advaitins. You have folks trying to convince you that cause-effect isn't real, unable to admit or see that in the very act of convincing they contradict themselves. The list I could write about confused and confusing non dualists is much longer than the one you offer. The notion of practice that I proposed comes from the instruction to let the practice move into living. This was shown in walking meditation and encouraged so that even putting away the tea cups was practice. Yes. You understand and value what you are doing, thus extending time-spent-in. I find it a little peculiar that zd does not make a distinction between one state and another, or value one state over another. (It seems this can be said about most here also). But to each his own. SDP: The two states you refer to only apply prior to SR. After SR, THIS, in the form of a particular human being, knows that it's all one thingless thing happening. There may be an impulse to meditate after SR, or there may not, but there's no longer an imaginary entity imagined to be at the center of whatever is happening. This means that all SVP-based efforting ceases. When people used to ask Papaji about some potential future event or activity, he would reply, "Wait and see." That's a good answer because there's no way to know how THIS will manifest in the future. As I pointed out in my Zen book, some meditators continue to formally meditate after SR, and some don't. If meditation is defined as "alert attentiveness," then meditation usually continues because alert attentiveness seems to be highly correlated with SR, and by the time SR has occurred it's become a general way of life. Whether that attentiveness manifests through formal activities, such as sitting in zazen, or informal activities, such as ATA-T, makes no difference at all (and isn't even necessary, unless it is ).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 11:30:44 GMT -5
The notion of a batting average for a particular path is silly. Zen didn't do the job for you. Advaita did. Leave it at that. Just being on this forum and engaging in the zany antics here is ample proof that satch is right. It is a rare thing this enlightenment, even for Advaitins. You have folks trying to convince you that cause-effect isn't real, unable to admit or see that in the very act of convincing they contradict themselves. The list I could write about confused and confusing non dualists is much longer than the one you offer. The notion of practice that I proposed comes from the instruction to let the practice move into living. This was shown in walking meditation and encouraged so that even putting away the tea cups was practice. Are you talking about wei wuwei (爲無爲)? I've heard of him, but never read anything he wrote. I've read hardly any books on Zen. I've read Merton's book solely because I have his desire to extract it from its Buddhist context. This was sensei's instruction, an excommunicated Soto bishop.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 11:34:42 GMT -5
The notion of a batting average for a particular path is silly. Zen didn't do the job for you. Advaita did. Leave it at that. Just being on this forum and engaging in the zany antics here is ample proof that satch is right. It is a rare thing this enlightenment, even for Advaitins. You have folks trying to convince you that cause-effect isn't real, unable to admit or see that in the very act of convincing they contradict themselves. The list I could write about confused and confusing non dualists is much longer than the one you offer. The notion of practice that I proposed comes from the instruction to let the practice move into living. This was shown in walking meditation and encouraged so that even putting away the tea cups was practice. Actually, Zen was very helpful. Not only were the silent retreats helpful (by bringing up various issues that I didn't even know existed and by supporting deeper and more sustained periods of silence than my usual practices) but the teachers also helped me realize just how unclear I was about many things. The other thing the Zen format did was trigger many questions about practice in general. As a big-picture guy, I was interested in how meditation practice related to everyday life, and I wondered if it would be necessary to do a formal practice forever. Even when I was doing formal sitting practice it seemed crazy to me that the Zen teachers I encountered focused so much on no movement, perfect posture, etc, and that's saying a lot when one considers that the tradition I was in was way looser than the Soto tradition! Fortunately, from my POV, my experimentation with many different meditative methods eventually convinced me that the informal ATA-T that I pursued during daily life was probably more efficacious in the long run than the formal sitting I was doing simply because I could do it much more often and for longer periods of time. I was pretty sure that the silent attentiveness, alone, was what triggered realizations, so eventually I quit going on Zen retreats and just did my own thing (primarily ATA-T). Admittedly, I found Advaita retreats to be a lot more fun because they didn't care whether you sat in a rocking chair, or went hiking in the woods. They also didn't care whether anyone came to satsang or chose to be alone, so it was just a much more relaxed and easy going retreat style. The only thing that was similar to Zen was the requirement to remain silent. It seemed to me that walk8ng meditation suggests sitting is not the sole bastion of practice.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on May 28, 2019 12:15:41 GMT -5
Actually, Zen was very helpful. Not only were the silent retreats helpful (by bringing up various issues that I didn't even know existed and by supporting deeper and more sustained periods of silence than my usual practices) but the teachers also helped me realize just how unclear I was about many things. The other thing the Zen format did was trigger many questions about practice in general. As a big-picture guy, I was interested in how meditation practice related to everyday life, and I wondered if it would be necessary to do a formal practice forever. Even when I was doing formal sitting practice it seemed crazy to me that the Zen teachers I encountered focused so much on no movement, perfect posture, etc, and that's saying a lot when one considers that the tradition I was in was way looser than the Soto tradition! Fortunately, from my POV, my experimentation with many different meditative methods eventually convinced me that the informal ATA-T that I pursued during daily life was probably more efficacious in the long run than the formal sitting I was doing simply because I could do it much more often and for longer periods of time. I was pretty sure that the silent attentiveness, alone, was what triggered realizations, so eventually I quit going on Zen retreats and just did my own thing (primarily ATA-T). Admittedly, I found Advaita retreats to be a lot more fun because they didn't care whether you sat in a rocking chair, or went hiking in the woods. They also didn't care whether anyone came to satsang or chose to be alone, so it was just a much more relaxed and easy going retreat style. The only thing that was similar to Zen was the requirement to remain silent. It seemed to me that walk8ng meditation suggests sitting is not the sole bastion of practice. That's true, but Zen walking meditation is still in the realm of a "formal" practice as opposed to the informal activity of simply being attentive to whatever is happening. I assume that Zen focuses most strongly upon sitting meditation primarily because it's easier to "go deep" doing that kind of meditation (because breathing is regulated and the body is relatively immobile). There's obviously "a carryover effect" that meditation has upon ordinary life, and certainly attentiveness to what's happening in the present moment is one of those effects. I'm not knocking sitting meditation, walking meditation, chanting meditation, and any of the other "formal" practices, but I suggest using ATA-T as a relatively relaxed and informal alternative simply because it can be pursued at any time and under almost any circumstances. It can also offer a faster path to non-abidance for people who resonate with that approach.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 15:50:11 GMT -5
It seemed to me that walk8ng meditation suggests sitting is not the sole bastion of practice. That's true, but Zen walking meditation is still in the realm of a "formal" practice as opposed to the informal activity of simply being attentive to whatever is happening. I assume that Zen focuses most strongly upon sitting meditation primarily because it's easier to "go deep" doing that kind of meditation (because breathing is regulated and the body is relatively immobile). There's obviously "a carryover effect" that meditation has upon ordinary life, and certainly attentiveness to what's happening in the present moment is one of those effects. I'm not knocking sitting meditation, walking meditation, chanting meditation, and any of the other "formal" practices, but I suggest using ATA-T as a relatively relaxed and informal alternative simply because it can be pursued at any time and under almost any circumstances. It can also offer a faster path to non-abidance for people who resonate with that approach. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Zen and the Art of Archery. I'm not a genius, but even I realized that showering could be about how to get caught up in my late coding project or it could be about showering.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 28, 2019 17:23:18 GMT -5
Just sitting I think is not just sitting. This article gets a little closer to it (not just sitting). www.lionsroar.com/going-nowhere/Be, Here, Now (the first instructions to Richard Alpert AKA Ram Das (AKA Baba Ram Das) {and book of the same name} is a good way to put it (not just sitting). So I would also say ATA-T is not enough either. There is no Be, Here, Now in ATA-T, there is Now, but no Here (Here is not here, but There). The Here part is/= Awareness, of awareness (or Attention on attention). There is a "reflexive" awareness (which is not related to reflexive thinking).
|
|