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Post by zendancer on May 20, 2019 7:09:52 GMT -5
Yep. The ZM asks the monk why he's practicing so hard, and the monk says, "I'm practicing to become a Buddha." The ZM then picks up a brick and starts polishing it. The monk asks the ZM why he's polishing the brick, and the master says, "So that it will turn into a precious diamond (or something like that)." The monk then says, "Master, you can polish that brick for eternity, but it's never going to turn into a diamond." The ZM then looks at the monk and says, "That's correct, and in the same way you'll never practice your way to becoming a Buddha." That's when the monk has a big insight. Obviously a Rinzai ZM. You've heard of the great Zen story about the tortoise and the hare? I once heard it, but I've forgotten it. Please share it.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2019 7:30:37 GMT -5
Obviously a Rinzai ZM. You've heard of the great Zen story about the tortoise and the hare? I once heard it, but I've forgotten it. Please share it. Not a Zen story at all. Aesop. "Slow and steady wins the race." I was claiming it for Zen with tongue in cheek.
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Post by zendancer on May 20, 2019 8:16:58 GMT -5
I once heard it, but I've forgotten it. Please share it. Not a Zen story at all. Aesop. "Slow and steady wins the race." I was claiming it for Zen with tongue in cheek. There's actually a modern Zen story about the tortoise and the hare, but I've forgotten it. Did you hear what the Zen student said to the hot dog vendor? "Make me one with everything."
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Post by zendancer on May 20, 2019 8:33:38 GMT -5
Not a Zen story at all. Aesop. "Slow and steady wins the race." I was claiming it for Zen with tongue in cheek. There's actually a modern Zen story about the tortoise and the hare, but I've forgotten it. Did you hear what the Zen student said to the hot dog vendor? "Make me one with everything." When my brother's son was about six years old, he used to ride around in the car with us listening to my Zen stories. He really liked the "one-finger Zen" story, and he began responding to his parent's questions by silently holding up one finger. He thought it was extremely funny. One day his mother asked him why he hadn't finished cleaning up his room, and he responded rather seriously, "Because I'm one with lots of stuff." At another time, he said something about his "other" brain. My brother said, "You have a second brain?" His son responded, "Yes, I call it 'my bacallia'." Fascinated, my brother asked him where his second brain was located, and he said, "In my leg," and pointed to his thigh. He explained that his second brain didn't think thoughts, but knew about things differently than the brain in his head. He was a very bright kid, and as a teenager, he got into Zen and did lots of meditation. He's in college now, and he recently told me that he doesn't meditate as much as he used to because he's so busy. He said that he only meditates now if he's feeling a lot of stress.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 20, 2019 10:04:04 GMT -5
SDP is involved with a Gurdjieff group, not Zen. Zen Masters often describe their experiences and realizations to motivate seekers, but they're never discussed in the same way as they're discussed here (sort of comparing notes and fleshing out definitions). The closest thing to these discussions are books like "The Three Pillars of Zen" in which ZM Kapleau describes Zen interviews and various kensho experiences. I've just read a bunch of quotes from Gurdjieff and they are all about inner experience. Here's one: “Without self knowledge, without understanding the working and functions of his machine, man cannot be free, he cannot govern himself and he will always remain a slave.” ― G.I. Gurdjieff So what on earth is SDP talking about? I said inner experiences are not described. This quote is not describing inner experience, although it is about inner experience. But Gurdjieff is an exception. He does sometimes describe inner experience, even in his writings. But most of the time it is obscured in some manner. Beelzebub's Tale's is all about inner experience, although written mostly as story-allegory. You can't really pick out the obscured descriptions of inner experience, unless you've had them. And so it is more or less an outline, which one has to fill out through their own experience. And Meetings With Remarkable Men has a lot of inner experience, which Gurdjieff promised to write further about in Life Is Real, Only Then When "I Am". {In Meetings WRM Gurdjieff gives a partial description of the first time he experienced the state of self-remembering, as a teenager}. (He did not fulfill all his promises in Life Is Real...). ....I'll give a further quote in reply to a zazeniac post. But speaking from or around inner experiences is different than describing inner experience.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on May 20, 2019 10:08:32 GMT -5
Hrm... interesting. I wonder if it's not so much about existential vs. non-existential as that whatever negative emotion might exist, the period between the time it is recognized and the time it is seen as a reflection of Self is very small. heh heh, well, I see two sides to that particular coin. On one hand, it's undeniable that there's this phenomenon of how the world leaves no trace on me, and I leave no trace on the world, regardless of the nature of the interaction, and that, compared to how it used to be, it's like some sort of magic trick. But then again, to say that all negative emotion fades quick because it's noticed as it's happening is like claiming some sort of 6 second rule for an enlightened floorburger. Right, it's not about it fading. It's about noticing the fact of its reflectivity in consciousness... Right, the losing of the mind in that kind of object of concentration seems to me to be a more limited, narrower version of what happens when the mind is lost in Self. The same kind of playful, spontaneous creativity at the highest levels that seems to occur only in that kind of absorption with the more limited physical activity can be opened up with respect to everything, I think. But obviously this is a dualistic formulation and so it's not all-or-nothing.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 20, 2019 10:09:14 GMT -5
In the Soto Zen tradition discussion is avoided, but in the Rinzai tradition it's not. Yes. I never discussed the reasoning with sensei or any of the priests, but it was definitely discouraged. I remember the first words I heard when I walked into the temple. A very stern and tough looking priest in his black robes said: "Takes off your shoes, put them in a cubby hole. Then have a seat on a cushion facing the wall." When I protested slightly because I hadn't had any instruction, he gave me an angry look and said:"Go sit down, face the wall and don't bother anyone." I knew not to push the dialog further and sat down. The instruction came later before the start gong. And they always came every time we sat. I surmise the reasoning has to do with the creative nature of mind. If you hear a description of enlightenment, mind will try to recreate it and convince you that it is the real thing. I suspect that happens more often than we realize. How many are fooled?This is why Adya's teacher brushed off his recounting of a kensho experience and asked him how he was getting along with his kids, I suspect. Yes, a relevant quote. "It is fortunate that men do not know the objective signs of real inner work of development, otherwise they would fantasize and imagine that they had them, and their possibility of developing would be lost forever".
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2019 10:11:56 GMT -5
There's actually a modern Zen story about the tortoise and the hare, but I've forgotten it. Did you hear what the Zen student said to the hot dog vendor? "Make me one with everything." When my brother's son was about six years old, he used to ride around in the car with us listening to my Zen stories. He really liked the "one-finger Zen" story, and he began responding to his parent's questions by silently holding up one finger. He thought it was extremely funny. One day his mother asked him why he hadn't finished cleaning up his room, and he responded rather seriously, "Because I'm one with lots of stuff." At another time, he said something about his "other" brain. My brother said, "You have a second brain?" His son responded, "Yes, I call it 'my bacallia'." Fascinated, my brother asked him where his second brain was located, and he said, "In my leg," and pointed to his thigh. He explained that his second brain didn't think thoughts, but knew about things differently than the brain in his head. He was a very bright kid, and as a teenager, he got into Zen and did lots of meditation. He's in college now, and he recently told me that he doesn't meditate as much as he used to because he's so busy. He said that he only meditates now if he's feeling a lot of stress. Yes it was disheartening to read Ramana saying only spiritual novices set aside time to meditate, like me. Your nephew is obviously not a novice. But there is strong evidence on this forum that spiritual novices can also eschew meditation.
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Post by satchitananda on May 20, 2019 10:25:57 GMT -5
Yes it was disheartening to read Ramana saying only spiritual novices set aside time to meditate, like me. Your nephew is obviously not a novice. But there is strong evidence on this forum that spiritual novices can also eschew meditation. Ramana doesn't have the final say on everything. There are plenty more masters. For instance did Ramana say that for the self-realized the world becomes a mansion of delights? No he didn't. That would have been way out of character. But Sri Ramakrishna did. And he's right. You need to get out more 😀.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 20, 2019 10:30:14 GMT -5
When my brother's son was about six years old, he used to ride around in the car with us listening to my Zen stories. He really liked the "one-finger Zen" story, and he began responding to his parent's questions by silently holding up one finger. He thought it was extremely funny. One day his mother asked him why he hadn't finished cleaning up his room, and he responded rather seriously, "Because I'm one with lots of stuff." At another time, he said something about his "other" brain. My brother said, "You have a second brain?" His son responded, "Yes, I call it 'my bacallia'." Fascinated, my brother asked him where his second brain was located, and he said, "In my leg," and pointed to his thigh. He explained that his second brain didn't think thoughts, but knew about things differently than the brain in his head. He was a very bright kid, and as a teenager, he got into Zen and did lots of meditation. He's in college now, and he recently told me that he doesn't meditate as much as he used to because he's so busy. He said that he only meditates now if he's feeling a lot of stress. Yes it was disheartening to read Ramana saying only spiritual novices set aside time to meditate, like me. Your nephew is obviously not a novice. But there is strong evidence on this forum that spiritual novices can also eschew meditation. Virtually nobody does anything without a reason. So when people read stuff like, SR is un-caused and there is nothing one can do to bring it about (but one can make oneself more "accident prone"), then this throws out the window, for many, a reason to meditate. But I for one am not interested in SR. But one can meditate in the midst of any activity. This is the principle of simultaneity. Sitting meditation is kind of like practice in sports, you practice so you are ready for game-time. Dogen understood practice. Practice is enlightenment, enlightenment is practice. Practice IS the state. Scroll down, see Oneness of practice-enlightenment. www.tamqui.com/buddhaworld/Dogen
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2019 10:36:33 GMT -5
Yes it was disheartening to read Ramana saying only spiritual novices set aside time to meditate, like me. Your nephew is obviously not a novice. But there is strong evidence on this forum that spiritual novices can also eschew meditation. Ramana doesn't have the final say on everything. There are plenty more masters. For instance did Ramana say that for the self-realized the world becomes a mansion of delights? No he didn't. That would have been way out of character. But Sri Ramakrishna did. And he's right. You need to get out more 😀. Then I'm already there. The world IS a mansion of delights.
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Post by satchitananda on May 20, 2019 10:42:04 GMT -5
Dogen understood practice. Practice is enlightenment, enlightenment is practice. Practice IS the state. Scroll down, see Oneness of practice-enlightenment. www.tamqui.com/buddhaworld/Dogen I read it. It's BS!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 20, 2019 10:58:48 GMT -5
Dogen understood practice. Practice is enlightenment, enlightenment is practice. Practice IS the state. Scroll down, see Oneness of practice-enlightenment. www.tamqui.com/buddhaworld/Dogen I read it. It's BS! For years Dogen was concerned with the question, If we already have Buddha-nature, then why is it necessary to practice? He finally after years answered the question satisfactorily for himself. I guess your answer is why you are not a Buddhist. global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms07.pdfThe link is a pretty thorough answer...
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Post by satchitananda on May 20, 2019 11:05:44 GMT -5
For years Dogen was concerned with the question, If we already have Buddha-nature, then why is it necessary to practice? He finally after years answered the question satisfactorily for himself. I guess your answer is why you are not a Buddhist. global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms07.pdfThe link is a pretty thorough answer... There is no such thing as a Buddhist as far as Enlightenment is concerned. Enlightenment is the end of practice. I'll read the document and maybe come back with my analysis.
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Post by zendancer on May 20, 2019 11:34:57 GMT -5
Yes it was disheartening to read Ramana saying only spiritual novices set aside time to meditate, like me. Your nephew is obviously not a novice. But there is strong evidence on this forum that spiritual novices can also eschew meditation. Virtually nobody does anything without a reason. So when people read stuff like, SR is un-caused and there is nothing one can do to bring it about (but one can make oneself more "accident prone"), then this throws out the window, for many, a reason to meditate. But I for one am not interested in SR. But one can meditate in the midst of any activity. This is the principle of simultaneity. Sitting meditation is kind of like practice in sports, you practice so you are ready for game-time. Dogen understood practice. Practice is enlightenment, enlightenment is practice. Practice IS the state. Scroll down, see Oneness of practice-enlightenment. www.tamqui.com/buddhaworld/Dogen IMO Dogen was pointing to something else, but people get attached to the words of sages, and miss where the words are pointing. A student once asked ZM Seung Sahn, "What happens to us after we die?" ZMSS replied, "You're already dead!" In order to understand this answer a realization is required. Why does one practice? That's a good question, but the answer is not "to get ready for game time." The answer is a lot deeper than that.
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