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Post by zendancer on Mar 18, 2019 6:29:34 GMT -5
The challenge in these discussions is that what we are talking about is prior to mind. And what is prior to mind can only be understood from prior to mind. By definition, the mind can’t grasp it. Which means we need to have the actual realization in order to understand the realization that’s been pointed to. Everything else will be just speculation. When we look at this topic from the perspective of mind and we hear ‘alive’ we automatically think of trees and bees and flowers and animals and humans because we need to objectify. And yes, that’s what the word ‘alive’ refers to based on the dictionary. Not so the pointer ‘alive’. The pointer ‘alive’ is not pointing to something objectifiable. Unfortunately, the dictionary definitions and categories always refer to something objectifiable. Which means those definitions and categories are meaningless for our purpose of pointing. So that’s where language becomes a problem (especially for the literally minded among us). In our example, the pointer ‘alive’ does not refer to the dualistic ‘alive’ as in ‘dead vs. alive’ the dictionary refers to. That’s what a CC/kensho reveals, that the usual categories of ‘dead vs. alive’ are bogus and that what we usually call ‘alive’ doesn’t even come close to the actual because it’s just a mere shadow of the actual, an abstraction. And what we usually call ‘dead’ quite frankly doesn’t even exist. Now, the challenge here for everyone who wants to understand this is to not get stuck on the exact words and instead look where the words are pointing to. And that’s easier said than done when we don’t have an actual reference for what’s been pointed to because in that case all we’ve got is the words on the page, i.e. the abstractions. Usually we won’t even be aware that such a context even exists or that such a context might even be possible. Because it is utterly inconceivable to the mind. Which means even if we would be open minded enough to at least theoretically allow such a context in our attempt to understand what’s been pointed to, all we could ever only do with an intellectual approach is speculate. And that’s not very encouraging news for deep and eager thinkers. There’s always only one way out of this dilemma and that is having the actual realization. Nothing else will ever do. We have to see for ourselves. We can’t just extrapolate it from the abstractions others have left us. So if our objective in these discussions is to get more clarity about what that realization actually is, then that’s not going to happen. What is more likely to happen is that we get more clarity about what this realization is not. So maybe that should be the focus of this discussion. Words from Srila Narada Muni, a self-realized soul. “Many years passed by. I lived on the fruits and leaves of the forest. My mind was immersed in contemplation. As time passed, I realized that God is present everywhere and in all objects. Yes, that's the flavor of it.
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 18, 2019 22:08:55 GMT -5
The ineffable Presence that pervades is the Base/Ground of what we see/experience as things. ZD just means there are no separate/individual things. All "things" are a process, a moving unfolding and enfolding process. Nothing is ever static. This process/flow is depicted in the 64 hexagrams of the I Ching, they cover all the circumstances of life. Second paragraph, ZD means everything besides what we call living, is also alive. I'd say this is the view of Native Americans (where is Istahota?), everything is alive, not just what we consider is alive. Yes. One of my major existential questions from the age of 20 to 40 was, "How did life appear in a generally lifeless universe?" The usual explanations suggested by the scientific community made no sense. Today the explanations may be a bit more sophisticated, but I suspect that a large number of scientists still believe that random physical processes (lightning in a reducing atmosphere, etc) create simple amino acids which then interact in random ways, and eventually give rise to primitive life forms that eventually evolve into more and more complex life forms. At the time I went to college, back in the dark ages, the process was analogized as a monkey randomly hitting keys on a typewriter and eventually writing a set of encyclopedias. I didn't buy that idea because the odds against even a primitive lifeform arising in that manner seemed absurd. I think the odds of drawing a full house in a game of poker are about 32,000 to 1 and there are only 52 cards in a deck. If odds were applied to the arising of life from inorganic compounds, then the number would be an astronomical one. After the CC, I realized that the ideas of what constitute life and death, themselves, are also cognitive illusions, and it is closer to the truth to consider reality, itself, as alive. Again, these words are just pointers, and each human must discover what's going on for him/herself. What do your ideas about the workings of life and the universe have to do with realization? Anybody can have these kind of ideas. There's nothing special about having them in the context of realization. This is just speculation about our experience of nature. It's been happening for centuries. I don't understand why you are attaching any significance to them. I can assure you that you have not been having any special insights.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 19, 2019 3:09:55 GMT -5
Yes. One of my major existential questions from the age of 20 to 40 was, "How did life appear in a generally lifeless universe?" The usual explanations suggested by the scientific community made no sense. Today the explanations may be a bit more sophisticated, but I suspect that a large number of scientists still believe that random physical processes (lightning in a reducing atmosphere, etc) create simple amino acids which then interact in random ways, and eventually give rise to primitive life forms that eventually evolve into more and more complex life forms. At the time I went to college, back in the dark ages, the process was analogized as a monkey randomly hitting keys on a typewriter and eventually writing a set of encyclopedias. I didn't buy that idea because the odds against even a primitive lifeform arising in that manner seemed absurd. I think the odds of drawing a full house in a game of poker are about 32,000 to 1 and there are only 52 cards in a deck. If odds were applied to the arising of life from inorganic compounds, then the number would be an astronomical one. After the CC, I realized that the ideas of what constitute life and death, themselves, are also cognitive illusions, and it is closer to the truth to consider reality, itself, as alive. Again, these words are just pointers, and each human must discover what's going on for him/herself. What do your ideas about the workings of life and the universe have to do with realization? Anybody can have these kind of ideas. There's nothing special about having them in the context of realization. This is just speculation about our experience of nature. It's been happening for centuries. I don't understand why you are attaching any significance to them. I can assure you that you have not been having any special insights. I'm on a ski trip & will respond later. In the meantime be careful about speculating about others.
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 19, 2019 3:12:02 GMT -5
What do your ideas about the workings of life and the universe have to do with realization? Anybody can have these kind of ideas. There's nothing special about having them in the context of realization. This is just speculation about our experience of nature. It's been happening for centuries. I don't understand why you are attaching any significance to them. I can assure you that you have not been having any special insights. I'm on a ski trip & will respond later. In the meantime be careful about speculating about others. Be as equally careful on the ski slopes!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 12:41:24 GMT -5
What do your ideas about the workings of life and the universe have to do with realization? Anybody can have these kind of ideas. There's nothing special about having them in the context of realization. This is just speculation about our experience of nature. It's been happening for centuries. I don't understand why you are attaching any significance to them. I can assure you that you have not been having any special insights. I'm on a ski trip & will respond later. In the meantime be careful about speculating about others.Sometimes speculation is all we're left with when we ask questions and the other flat out refuses to address them.
(btw, my apologies re: the "pat" answer bit. I wondered why you suggested 'ad hominen' in your post to me.
As JLY pointed out to me, I misused that term. I mistakingly thought it was synonymous with 'firm'. I learned it actually has 'insincerity' inherent in it's meaning. I do not see you as 'insincere' at all when you speak about finding answers to your existential questions).
(enjoy your trip! )
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Post by zendancer on Mar 19, 2019 13:28:43 GMT -5
Yes. One of my major existential questions from the age of 20 to 40 was, "How did life appear in a generally lifeless universe?" The usual explanations suggested by the scientific community made no sense. Today the explanations may be a bit more sophisticated, but I suspect that a large number of scientists still believe that random physical processes (lightning in a reducing atmosphere, etc) create simple amino acids which then interact in random ways, and eventually give rise to primitive life forms that eventually evolve into more and more complex life forms. At the time I went to college, back in the dark ages, the process was analogized as a monkey randomly hitting keys on a typewriter and eventually writing a set of encyclopedias. I didn't buy that idea because the odds against even a primitive lifeform arising in that manner seemed absurd. I think the odds of drawing a full house in a game of poker are about 32,000 to 1 and there are only 52 cards in a deck. If odds were applied to the arising of life from inorganic compounds, then the number would be an astronomical one. After the CC, I realized that the ideas of what constitute life and death, themselves, are also cognitive illusions, and it is closer to the truth to consider reality, itself, as alive. Again, these words are just pointers, and each human must discover what's going on for him/herself. What do your ideas about the workings of life and the universe have to do with realization? Anybody can have these kind of ideas. There's nothing special about having them in the context of realization. This is just speculation about our experience of nature. It's been happening for centuries. I don't understand why you are attaching any significance to them. I can assure you that you have not been having any special insights. Not sure what the issue here is, but much of this has been discussed in the past. Two points seem worth mentioning. First, existential questions are not like other questions because the resolution of existential questions requires realizations. Answers to any existential questions can be discovered by simply contemplating the questions in silence. The resolutions can be considered in either a positive or a negative way. The negative way is realizing what is not so; the positive way is realizing what is so. Rinzai Zen people use koans as a meditative technique, and all koans have concrete answers. I've given numerous examples of such answers in the past, and the methodology is not hard to understand. Koans are like riddles. The answers can't be figured out intellectually; they occur as sudden insights. Such insights can be trivial or they can be mind-boggling and life changing. A trivial example is the old baseball riddle--It was the bottom of the ninth inning in a baseball game and the score was tied. The bases were loaded, and the batter hit a home run, but not a man scored. Why? Due to cultural conditioning many people will not immediately see the answer to this question, but if they contemplate the issue in silence, sooner or later the answer will suddenly appear. It was a baseball game being played by women. All koans are like this, but most are not resolved as quickly and easily as this one. People often become curious about the nature of reality, and many of them intuitively suspect that the conventional explanations provided by their culture can;'t be correct. They may, like me, have had specifically formulated questions, such as: 1. Is there such a thing as God? Is there a heaven or hell? Is there an afterlife? 2. How did life appear in a seemingly inorganic universe? 3. Who am I, really? 4. Where did I come from and where am I going? As a scientist, I had many existential questions related to modern physics, such as, 1. What is a subatomic particle, really? 2. What could explain the observer paradoxes? 3. What existed before the Big Bang if there was a Big Bang? All of these questions can be resolved through silent contemplation. I had dozens and dozens of such questions that consumed me for many years. Despite 20 years of thinking about the questions I never found a single answer, but 5 months after i started meditating, several of my most important questions got answered all at once as a result of a CC. That event suggested to me that all of my other questions could be resolved through silent contemplation, and that's exactly what happened. Over the next 15 years I went on numerous silent meditation retreats and did a lot of ATA-T and every question that had ever bothered me was resolved as well as several new questions that arose during those years. People who resolve simple koans often develop confidence in their ability to resolve the harder ones, but a key factor is how important the resolution of a koan is to someone. Most of the people I've met who had big breakthrough insights were people who, like me, were absolutely consumed by the issues involved. One guy, for example, had always wanted to know God. He wanted the direct experience, and he had given up on holy books, preachers, etc. He eventually discovered what the word "God" points to, and he went on to study with Adyashanti and eventually became a ND teacher. There are many paths to the truth, but most of them usually involve one or more major realizations.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 19, 2019 13:31:05 GMT -5
I'm on a ski trip & will respond later. In the meantime be careful about speculating about others.Sometimes speculation is all we're left with when we ask questions and the other flat out refuses to address them.
(btw, my apologies re: the "pat" answer bit. I wondered why you suggested 'ad hominen' in your post to me.
As JLY pointed out to me, I misused that term. I mistakingly thought it was synonymous with 'firm'. I learned it actually has 'insincerity' inherent in it's meaning. I do not see you as 'insincere' at all when you speak about finding answers to your existential questions).
(enjoy your trip! ) Thanks. I think that anyone who knows me knows that "sincere" would be an understatement in my case.
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 19, 2019 13:41:42 GMT -5
What do your ideas about the workings of life and the universe have to do with realization? Anybody can have these kind of ideas. There's nothing special about having them in the context of realization. This is just speculation about our experience of nature. It's been happening for centuries. I don't understand why you are attaching any significance to them. I can assure you that you have not been having any special insights. Not sure what the issue here is, but much of this has been discussed in the past. Two points seem worth mentioning. First, existential questions are not like other questions because the resolution of existential questions requires realizations. Answers to any existential questions can be discovered by simply contemplating the questions in silence. The resolutions can be considered in either a positive or a negative way. The negative way is realizing what is not so; the positive way is realizing what is so. Rinzai Zen people use koans as a meditative technique, and all koans have concrete answers. I've given numerous examples of such answers in the past, and the methodology is not hard to understand. Koans are like riddles. The answers can't be figured out intellectually; they occur as sudden insights. Such insights can be trivial or they can be mind-boggling and life changing. A trivial example is the old baseball riddle--It was the bottom of the ninth inning in a baseball game and the score was tied. The bases were loaded, and the batter hit a home run, but not a man scored. Why? Due to cultural conditioning many people will not immediately see the answer to this question, but if they contemplate the issue in silence, sooner or later the answer will suddenly appear. It was a baseball game being played by women. All koans are like this, but most are not resolved as quickly and easily as this one. People often become curious about the nature of reality, and many of them intuitively suspect that the conventional explanations provided by their culture can;'t be correct. They may, like me, have had specifically formulated questions, such as: 1. Is there such a thing as God? Is there a heaven or hell? Is there an afterlife? 2. How did life appear in a seemingly inorganic universe? 3. Who am I, really? 4. Where did I come from and where am I going? As a scientist, I had many existential questions related to modern physics, such as, 1. What is a subatomic particle, really? 2. What could explain the observer paradoxes? 3. What existed before the Big Bang if there was a Big Bang? All of these questions can be resolved through silent contemplation. I had dozens and dozens of such questions that consumed me for many years. Despite 20 years of thinking about the questions I never found a single answer, but 5 months after i started meditating, several of my most important questions got answered all at once as a result of a CC. That event suggested to me that all of my other questions could be resolved through silent contemplation, and that's exactly what happened. Over the next 15 years I went on numerous silent meditation retreats and did a lot of ATA-T and every question that had ever bothered me was resolved as well as several new questions that arose during those years. People who resolve simple koans often develop confidence in their ability to resolve the harder ones, but a key factor is how important the resolution of a koan is to someone. Most of the people I've met who had big breakthrough insights were people who, like me, were absolutely consumed by the issues involved. One guy, for example, had always wanted to know God. He wanted the direct experience, and he had given up on holy books, preachers, etc. He eventually discovered what the word "God" points to, and he went on to study with Adyashanti and eventually became a ND teacher. There are many paths to the truth, but most of them usually involve one or more major realizations. What got answered. What there was before the Big Bang? What's the answer?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 14:02:09 GMT -5
Not sure what the issue here is, but much of this has been discussed in the past. Two points seem worth mentioning. First, existential questions are not like other questions because the resolution of existential questions requires realizations. Answers to any existential questions can be discovered by simply contemplating the questions in silence. The resolutions can be considered in either a positive or a negative way. The negative way is realizing what is not so; the positive way is realizing what is so. Rinzai Zen people use koans as a meditative technique, and all koans have concrete answers. I've given numerous examples of such answers in the past, and the methodology is not hard to understand. Koans are like riddles. The answers can't be figured out intellectually; they occur as sudden insights. Such insights can be trivial or they can be mind-boggling and life changing. A trivial example is the old baseball riddle--It was the bottom of the ninth inning in a baseball game and the score was tied. The bases were loaded, and the batter hit a home run, but not a man scored. Why? Due to cultural conditioning many people will not immediately see the answer to this question, but if they contemplate the issue in silence, sooner or later the answer will suddenly appear. It was a baseball game being played by women. All koans are like this, but most are not resolved as quickly and easily as this one. People often become curious about the nature of reality, and many of them intuitively suspect that the conventional explanations provided by their culture can;'t be correct. They may, like me, have had specifically formulated questions, such as: 1. Is there such a thing as God? Is there a heaven or hell? Is there an afterlife? 2. How did life appear in a seemingly inorganic universe? 3. Who am I, really? 4. Where did I come from and where am I going? As a scientist, I had many existential questions related to modern physics, such as, 1. What is a subatomic particle, really? 2. What could explain the observer paradoxes? 3. What existed before the Big Bang if there was a Big Bang? All of these questions can be resolved through silent contemplation. I had dozens and dozens of such questions that consumed me for many years. Despite 20 years of thinking about the questions I never found a single answer, but 5 months after i started meditating, several of my most important questions got answered all at once as a result of a CC. That event suggested to me that all of my other questions could be resolved through silent contemplation, and that's exactly what happened. Over the next 15 years I went on numerous silent meditation retreats and did a lot of ATA-T and every question that had ever bothered me was resolved as well as several new questions that arose during those years. People who resolve simple koans often develop confidence in their ability to resolve the harder ones, but a key factor is how important the resolution of a koan is to someone. Most of the people I've met who had big breakthrough insights were people who, like me, were absolutely consumed by the issues involved. One guy, for example, had always wanted to know God. He wanted the direct experience, and he had given up on holy books, preachers, etc. He eventually discovered what the word "God" points to, and he went on to study with Adyashanti and eventually became a ND teacher. There are many paths to the truth, but most of them usually involve one or more major realizations. What got answered. What there was before the Big Bang? What's the answer? Yeah, as I see it, the very question is gravely misconceived. It supposes an objective universe that has a beginning...a cause/catalyst.
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 19, 2019 14:14:50 GMT -5
What got answered. What there was before the Big Bang? What's the answer? Yeah, as I see it, the very question is gravely misconceived. It supposes an objective universe that has a beginning...a cause/catalyst. And what have answers to koans got to do with anything. Answers to scientific questions. What? Are they better than answers from scientists because you meditate? And what are multiple realizations. About what? It all sounds very New Age to me.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 19, 2019 17:10:41 GMT -5
Yeah, as I see it, the very question is gravely misconceived. It supposes an objective universe that has a beginning...a cause/catalyst. And what have answers to koans got to do with anything. Answers to scientific questions. What? Are they better than answers from scientists because you meditate? And what are multiple realizations. About what? It all sounds very New Age to me. I can see that there's no real interest in what I'm describing, and that's perfectly okay. If it sounds New Age, it's only because of unfamiliarity with a pathway that has been around for thousands of years. Some of us apparently have had lots of curiosity about the nature of reality, and the methodology I've described is a simple way to resolve that kind of curiosity and acquire understanding. As E. says, realizations inform mind, so true understanding can only occur after non-conceptual insights have occurred. Scientists cannot answer existential questions; they can only speculate about ideas within the realm of the relative. What I'm pointing to only deals with the absolute. Seeing through the illusion of selfhood is a major realization, but there are many others. Nevertheless, I don't wish to bore anyone, so I'll continue this conversation with those who have more interest. No problemo.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 17:46:20 GMT -5
And what have answers to koans got to do with anything. Answers to scientific questions. What? Are they better than answers from scientists because you meditate? And what are multiple realizations. About what? It all sounds very New Age to me. I can see that there's no real interest in what I'm describing, and that's perfectly okay. If it sounds New Age, it's only because of unfamiliarity with a pathway that has been around for thousands of years. Some of us apparently have had lots of curiosity about the nature of reality, and the methodology I've described is a simple way to resolve that kind of curiosity and acquire understanding. As E. says, realizations inform mind, so true understanding can only occur after non-conceptual insights have occurred. Scientists cannot answer existential questions; they can only speculate about ideas within the realm of the relative. What I'm pointing to only deals with the absolute. Seeing through the illusion of selfhood is a major realization, but there are many others. Nevertheless, I don't wish to bore anyone, so I'll continue this conversation with those who have more interest. No problemo. Pointing to the absolute is not compatible with ideas such as 'how the universe started'. Just sayin. (I'm not sure if you are suggesting they are compatible, or not)
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Post by zendancer on Mar 19, 2019 18:00:03 GMT -5
I can see that there's no real interest in what I'm describing, and that's perfectly okay. If it sounds New Age, it's only because of unfamiliarity with a pathway that has been around for thousands of years. Some of us apparently have had lots of curiosity about the nature of reality, and the methodology I've described is a simple way to resolve that kind of curiosity and acquire understanding. As E. says, realizations inform mind, so true understanding can only occur after non-conceptual insights have occurred. Scientists cannot answer existential questions; they can only speculate about ideas within the realm of the relative. What I'm pointing to only deals with the absolute. Seeing through the illusion of selfhood is a major realization, but there are many others. Nevertheless, I don't wish to bore anyone, so I'll continue this conversation with those who have more interest. No problemo. Pointing to the absolute is not compatible with ideas such as 'how the universe started'. Just sayin. (I'm not sure if you are suggesting they are compatible, or not) The question that interested me was intellectual because intellectual understanding was all I knew about at that time--"What preceded the Big Bang if there was a Big Bang?" The resolution, or answer to that question, was not intellectual. I/It directly apprehended the Infinite.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 18:07:23 GMT -5
Pointing to the absolute is not compatible with ideas such as 'how the universe started'. Just sayin. (I'm not sure if you are suggesting they are compatible, or not) The question that interested me was intellectual because intellectual understanding was all I knew about at that time--"What preceded the Big Bang if there was a Big Bang?" The resolution, or answer to that question, was not intellectual. I/It directly apprehended the Infinite. But you have seen that all there really is, is NOW, right?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 18:18:11 GMT -5
Not sure what the issue here is, but much of this has been discussed in the past. Two points seem worth mentioning. First, existential questions are not like other questions because the resolution of existential questions requires realizations. Answers to any existential questions can be discovered by simply contemplating the questions in silence. The resolutions can be considered in either a positive or a negative way. The negative way is realizing what is not so; the positive way is realizing what is so. Rinzai Zen people use koans as a meditative technique, and all koans have concrete answers. I've given numerous examples of such answers in the past, and the methodology is not hard to understand. Koans are like riddles. The answers can't be figured out intellectually; they occur as sudden insights. Such insights can be trivial or they can be mind-boggling and life changing. A trivial example is the old baseball riddle--It was the bottom of the ninth inning in a baseball game and the score was tied. The bases were loaded, and the batter hit a home run, but not a man scored. Why? Due to cultural conditioning many people will not immediately see the answer to this question, but if they contemplate the issue in silence, sooner or later the answer will suddenly appear. It was a baseball game being played by women. All koans are like this, but most are not resolved as quickly and easily as this one. People often become curious about the nature of reality, and many of them intuitively suspect that the conventional explanations provided by their culture can;'t be correct. They may, like me, have had specifically formulated questions, such as: 1. Is there such a thing as God? Is there a heaven or hell? Is there an afterlife? 2. How did life appear in a seemingly inorganic universe? 3. Who am I, really? 4. Where did I come from and where am I going? As a scientist, I had many existential questions related to modern physics, such as, 1. What is a subatomic particle, really? 2. What could explain the observer paradoxes? 3. What existed before the Big Bang if there was a Big Bang? All of these questions can be resolved through silent contemplation. I had dozens and dozens of such questions that consumed me for many years. Despite 20 years of thinking about the questions I never found a single answer, but 5 months after i started meditating, several of my most important questions got answered all at once as a result of a CC. That event suggested to me that all of my other questions could be resolved through silent contemplation, and that's exactly what happened. Over the next 15 years I went on numerous silent meditation retreats and did a lot of ATA-T and every question that had ever bothered me was resolved as well as several new questions that arose during those years. People who resolve simple koans often develop confidence in their ability to resolve the harder ones, but a key factor is how important the resolution of a koan is to someone. Most of the people I've met who had big breakthrough insights were people who, like me, were absolutely consumed by the issues involved. One guy, for example, had always wanted to know God. He wanted the direct experience, and he had given up on holy books, preachers, etc. He eventually discovered what the word "God" points to, and he went on to study with Adyashanti and eventually became a ND teacher. There are many paths to the truth, but most of them usually involve one or more major realizations. What got answered. What there was before the Big Bang? What's the answer? Sat Chit Ananda and hemorrhoids.
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