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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 4:29:19 GMT -5
I can put what you just said very simply. You still believe in I Am. You said your entire being objects to the absence of self. There's the clue right there. It's not your being that's objecting. It's just arising from separation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 4:48:10 GMT -5
I can put what you just said very simply. You still believe in I Am. You said your entire being objects to the absence of self. There's the clue right there. It's not your being that's objecting. It's just arising from separation. Believe or am I know the difference. Non dualism separates, which is absolutely ironic. I will found you something on separation. I wanted to include it here, but couldn't locate the sentence. Non dualism separates at 2nd mountain and recombines at 3rd mountain. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 5:03:49 GMT -5
Non dualism separates at 2nd mountain and recombines at 3rd mountain. Non dualism separate. The human recombines. 3rd mountain is beyond any notion of dual or non dual. The human never changed. It's just not the centre now. And if it's not the centre, then there is no want for its presence or fear for its absence. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 5:12:58 GMT -5
3rd mountain is beyond any notion of dual or non dual. The human never changed. It's just not the centre now. And if it's not the centre, then there is no want for its presence or fear for its absence. that is correct, and I said change is not possible. From that perspective.. every teacher is a charlatan who charges money for teaching the empy, unsunstantiated garbage. You still talk about it in hazy, unreal terms. You are the centre, because you are the most important thing in the world - to you, and equally unimportant - to anyone else out there in the world. Including your parents, partners, children etc. etc. Ha ha, that's because talking about it is unreal. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 5:22:57 GMT -5
Ha ha, that's because talking about it is unreal. But being is real, correct? That is why I keep saying 'All in Presence only'. Jed was a coward in that way. You are not. As I'm now getting a sense of the character called Jed from reading his own words, please explain his cowardice. Yes Being is real. |
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Post by tenka on Apr 2, 2017 6:22:52 GMT -5
I talk about comparisons a fair bit and it is essential in my understanding .
Self and no self fall into the same bracket .
The comparison to being aware of what you are that is in reflection of the mind Self and no reflection of the mind Self .
There you have it .
You can only make a comparison of the mind .
There can only be the sense of I am Self of the mind .
The suggestion that Self is a lie, is a comparison .
No reflection of Self cannot make any comparison .
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 2, 2017 8:33:58 GMT -5
The question of true Self generated some discussion, so here is some vomit on the subject. Truth exists. This looks convincing, does it not? Comforting and cosy, something to hold on to in this vast ocean of 'what the f*ck is going on, I I need a rudder!'. But. Is the tree true? Is Jed McKenna true? Is the sun true? Where is true? It does not exist. 'True' arises in the conceptual framework of the Mind. 'MY Self' as is known to most humans - has no existential Reality, a collection of stored neural pathways and perceptual schematics. But here is the paradox, of course. There is no point in denying that we, each one of us, still feel unique, continuous of our being. We feel the centre whioch makes us - us. Stardustpilgrim said: "It seems that for most people here there isn't an individuated true self or essence, there is merely Self, or the body as response to the cosmos, the mind-body being an expression of the whole cosmos. But for me, yes, there is an individuated essence, true self."My entire being, too, objects to the belief in the absence of individualted Self. This belief throws people off exactly because it is so contradictory to their being, to how they experience and interact with the world. This was one of my points of divergence with Jed, who kept insisting (until very recenty, crazy son of a b*tch) - 'no self'. But Jed has books to sell and students to fool. I don't. This is indeed THE IRONY... spiritual 'teachings' tell us there is no true self at all, yet many a teacher is well set up and thriving. Have you ever questioned why they shamelessly teach humans b*ullsh*t? And have you ever wondered just WHY the three major religions/spiritual thoughts of the world are different in the way they address certain things? I have an answer to that, but it is outside of this particular instance of vomit. Our true Selves have been suppressed, continuously lasered out of us, we were presented with millions of reflections of others, mirrored them, integrated what is not us - into our psyche. It started at birth, with the first breath when the good doctor placed you on your mum's chest and said 'Hey, he is a whopper'.. Take all that indoctrination out, take ALL OF IT out.. what is left? Nothing? Really? Have another look. Maugli might have been hopping the trees in the jungle with other monekys, but he was not nothing. A dog is not nothing, it has its true Self, albeit without being aware of it. A child is NEVER born as a blank slate, and those who had a few - will tell you how dfferent they were even as babies. What is left? My true nature, as at moment of conception. Unspoilt. Natural State. What is it? Sweet? Bitter? Mighty? Canning? Callous? Concerned? Can I murder another human in cold blood? Do I like running marathons because my body needs a challenge?. Do I thrive on taking things apart to see how they work? Do I feel compelled to create a work of art? Can I overcome a fear of a bungee jump? Do I naturally keep my cool in the face of adversity or turn into a whimpering wreck? True Self is. True Self exists. If you, as you are now here, were born EXACTLY as you are - in ancient Egypt... imagine that for a minute. Now, you would worship Osiris and would charcoal your eyes and would work the field or whatever... But your ESSENCE, as is now here in the modern world - would still be the same John or Mary. You would exhibit the same preferences for certain types of food, (but it wouldn't be pizza!), drink, sleeping and sex positions. You would have the same inclinations for activities (say, sedenary versus active), you would be prone to the same illnesses, would display the same phsychological traits, the same semen count and the colour of your eyes. It is unchangeable. All that and its being consitutes your true Self. But we are talking here in this forum essentially about human 'psyche', not the colour of your eyes, right? The psyche has the same properties in each human, but it manifests according to both true Self and the experienced personal reality, i. - your unique life stories. So what the heck are you, your true Self, and why do people get so confused when encounting the question for the first time? Because it is asked outside of any context. If I asked you 'What is this apple?'.... what would you answer? There are hundreds of different angles (contexts), with which to answer this question, and each one would be correct. They will be the total sum of all that the apple is: a fruit, tasty, my favourite thing, crunchy, round, grows in Winchester, fresh smell, rots fast, full of iron etc. etc. etc.... You are the sum total of all the above, expressed in human terms. Yes, the property of crunchy-ness is universal. We are all the same undifferentiated Consciousness floating in the vast field of cosmic nothing. But YOU may be crunchier than me. Or sweeter. Or smaller. Or juicier. Or harder. And so on. So what ARE you, your true Self? An easy question to answer, the meaning of which is totally concealed by how it is framed. You KNOW your crunchy-ness or smell or rot. That is all you are, specifically and at birth. "16. What is the nature of the Self?
What exists in truth is the Self alone. The world, the individual soul, and God are appearances in
it. like silver in mother-of-pearl, these three appear at the same time, and disappear at the same
time."
Ramana Maharshi "Who Am I? - Nan Yar? The world of nondualism absconds from Reality via the Oblivion Pill of denial of what is. It insists on expressing ONLY one part of the elephant: the world of no form. But Reality is about multitudes and existence of every opposing, contradicting instance, where both form and no form co-exist without contradiction. One has to go beyond 'spiritual' teachings to Reality of what is. What Is - is right in front of one's nose and encompasses everything. That is probably the only Truth, if you still need a name, but why would you when the rain is falling, the sun is shining, your stomach is asking for food and there is a good book to read or a new message on the forum to reply to... hehe.. it is incomprehensible and totally transparent at the same time. Someone I used to know in Sri Lanka (who was not TR, but was a Human Adult, which he wouldn't even know to class himself as) said to me 'I know the beauty of me'. darn right. I know mine too. I know what/who I am <========= Ego in perpetual dance with true (higher) Self which refuses to play the human Game. "What exists in truth is the Self alone." To figure out what you really are, you can contemplate this: You are.... what is.. when no one is looking at you. Yes. |
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Post by penny on Apr 2, 2017 10:40:12 GMT -5
The question of true Self generated some discussion, so here is some vomit on the subject. Truth exists. This looks convincing, does it not? Comforting and cosy, something to hold on to in this vast ocean of 'what the f*ck is going on, I I need a rudder!'. But. Is the tree true? Is Jed McKenna true? Is the sun true? Where is true? It does not exist. 'True' arises in the conceptual framework of the Mind. 'MY Self' as is known to most humans - has no existential Reality, a collection of stored neural pathways and perceptual schematics. But here is the paradox, of course. There is no point in denying that we, each one of us, still feel unique, continuous of our being. We feel the centre whioch makes us - us. Stardustpilgrim said: "It seems that for most people here there isn't an individuated true self or essence, there is merely Self, or the body as response to the cosmos, the mind-body being an expression of the whole cosmos. But for me, yes, there is an individuated essence, true self."My entire being, too, objects to the belief in the absence of individualted Self. This belief throws people off exactly because it is so contradictory to their being, to how they experience and interact with the world. This was one of my points of divergence with Jed, who kept insisting (until very recenty, crazy son of a b*tch) - 'no self'. But Jed has books to sell and students to fool. I don't. This is indeed THE IRONY... spiritual 'teachings' tell us there is no true self at all, yet many a teacher is well set up and thriving. Have you ever questioned why they shamelessly teach humans b*ullsh*t? And have you ever wondered just WHY the three major religions/spiritual thoughts of the world are different in the way they address certain things? I have an answer to that, but it is outside of this particular instance of vomit. Our true Selves have been suppressed, continuously lasered out of us, we were presented with millions of reflections of others, mirrored them, integrated what is not us - into our psyche. It started at birth, with the first breath when the good doctor placed you on your mum's chest and said 'Hey, he is a whopper'.. Take all that indoctrination out, take ALL OF IT out.. what is left? Nothing? Really? Have another look. Maugli might have been hopping the trees in the jungle with other monekys, but he was not nothing. A dog is not nothing, it has its true Self, albeit without being aware of it. A child is NEVER born as a blank slate, and those who had a few - will tell you how dfferent they were even as babies. What is left? My true nature, as at moment of conception. Unspoilt. Natural State. What is it? Sweet? Bitter? Mighty? Canning? Callous? Concerned? Can I murder another human in cold blood? Do I like running marathons because my body needs a challenge?. Do I thrive on taking things apart to see how they work? Do I feel compelled to create a work of art? Can I overcome a fear of a bungee jump? Do I naturally keep my cool in the face of adversity or turn into a whimpering wreck? True Self is. True Self exists. If you, as you are now here, were born EXACTLY as you are - in ancient Egypt... imagine that for a minute. Now, you would worship Osiris and would charcoal your eyes and would work the field or whatever... But your ESSENCE, as is now here in the modern world - would still be the same John or Mary. You would exhibit the same preferences for certain types of food, (but it wouldn't be pizza!), drink, sleeping and sex positions. You would have the same inclinations for activities (say, sedenary versus active), you would be prone to the same illnesses, would display the same phsychological traits, the same semen count and the colour of your eyes. It is unchangeable. All that and its being consitutes your true Self. But we are talking here in this forum essentially about human 'psyche', not the colour of your eyes, right? The psyche has the same properties in each human, but it manifests according to both true Self and the experienced personal reality, i. - your unique life stories. So what the heck are you, your true Self, and why do people get so confused when encounting the question for the first time? Because it is asked outside of any context. If I asked you 'What is this apple?'.... what would you answer? There are hundreds of different angles (contexts), with which to answer this question, and each one would be correct. They will be the total sum of all that the apple is: a fruit, tasty, my favourite thing, crunchy, round, grows in Winchester, fresh smell, rots fast, full of iron etc. etc. etc.... You are the sum total of all the above, expressed in human terms. Yes, the property of crunchy-ness is universal. We are all the same undifferentiated Consciousness floating in the vast field of cosmic nothing. But YOU may be crunchier than me. Or sweeter. Or smaller. Or juicier. Or harder. And so on. So what ARE you, your true Self? An easy question to answer, the meaning of which is totally concealed by how it is framed. You KNOW your crunchy-ness or smell or rot. That is all you are, specifically and at birth. "16. What is the nature of the Self?
What exists in truth is the Self alone. The world, the individual soul, and God are appearances in
it. like silver in mother-of-pearl, these three appear at the same time, and disappear at the same
time."
Ramana Maharshi "Who Am I? - Nan Yar? The world of nondualism absconds from Reality via the Oblivion Pill of denial of what is. It insists on expressing ONLY one part of the elephant: the world of no form. But Reality is about multitudes and existence of every opposing, contradicting instance, where both form and no form co-exist without contradiction. One has to go beyond 'spiritual' teachings to Reality of what is. What Is - is right in front of one's nose and encompasses everything. That is probably the only Truth, if you still need a name, but why would you when the rain is falling, the sun is shining, your stomach is asking for food and there is a good book to read or a new message on the forum to reply to... hehe.. it is incomprehensible and totally transparent at the same time. Someone I used to know in Sri Lanka (who was not TR, but was a Human Adult, which he wouldn't even know to class himself as) said to me 'I know the beauty of me'. darn right. I know mine too. I know what/who I am <========= Ego in perpetual dance with true (higher) Self which refuses to play the human Game. "What exists in truth is the Self alone." To figure out what you really are, you can contemplate this: You are.... what is.. when no one is looking at you. I'll take this as the answer to my question in the other thread. And I'll echo SDP with another yes. When I first came to this forum I made a comment that people get stuck in the nothingness. They know what they are and that what they are is inconceivable but then stop there without letting the ramifications of that sink in. I spent the better part of the last ten years ignoring that, thinking I was done. The ramifications though! An itch that can't be scratched away when ignored. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 11:46:26 GMT -5
I'll take this as the answer to my question in the other thread. And I'll echo SDP with another yes. When I first came to this forum I made a comment that people get stuck in the nothingness. They know what they are and that what they are is inconceivable but then stop there without letting the ramifications of that sink in. I spent the better part of the last ten years ignoring that, thinking I was done. The ramifications though! An itch that can't be scratched away when ignored. Yes. One has to go back to the reality of what it is to be human, and specifically, what kind of human one is, outside of any external influence. I am a very fast learner. Done in two years to the week, and from that - never really stopped===>>> done-r and done-r... I have unquenchable thirst to know just how far this particular Consciousness will go. Of course, the 'nondual' folks will say there is nowhere to go. In one context - yes, correct. Wherever I go - here I am!! But in other ways... what ELSE can I see with Clarity? How Far? How high? How deep?
Then I'll kick the bucket, and all this Knowing will be lost. Thousands of others will ask tehmselves the same questions, and will go through the process, will discover there was nothing to discover.. then will kick the bucket. Will re-invent the wheel. The Wheel of Non Creative Creation. Technological progress is fast, compared to the passing on of existential Wisdom. How far can you see with Clarity? Can you see into an Ancient Oak and know it's life as the air that it stands in? How high can you see with Clarity? Can you see into a Mountain and know it's life as an Ocean floor? How deep can you see with Clarity? Can you see into the darkness of the deepest Ocean and not run back to the light? |
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Post by tenka on Apr 2, 2017 13:12:13 GMT -5
I talk about comparisons a fair bit and it is essential in my understanding . Self and no self fall into the same bracket . The comparison to being aware of what you are that is in reflection of the mind Self and no reflection of the mind Self . There you have it . You can only make a comparison of the mind . There can only be the sense of I am Self of the mind . The suggestion that Self is a lie, is a comparison . No reflection of Self cannot make any comparison . Tenka, this is way too conceptual for me and doesn't reflect you to me. Basically the quandary of what anything 'is' or Isn't or whether Self is a lie or whether a human is real or not comes from an environment where what you are can entertain such a quandary . I am speaking of one's reflection of Self that is able to compare such matters . The very fact that one can compare such Self reflections must tell you something about the quandary .. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 13:51:16 GMT -5
How far can you see with Clarity? Can you see into an Ancient Oak and know it's life as the air that it stands in? How high can you see with Clarity? Can you see into a Mountain and know it's life as an Ocean floor? How deep can you see with Clarity? Can you see into the darkness of the deepest Ocean and not run back to the light? Can you? The answer to that is in the Ancient Oak, the Mountain and the darkness of the deepest Ocean. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 14:07:02 GMT -5
The answer to that is in the Ancient Oak, the Mountain and the darkness of the deepest Ocean. You obviously asked the Ancient Oak, the Mountain and the darkness of the deepest Ocean and got the answer. Could you give me the answer you received to all these questions you posed? "How far can you see with Clarity? Can you see into an Ancient Oak and know it's life as the air that it stands in?
How high can you see with Clarity? Can you see into a Mountain and know it's life as an Ocean floor?
How deep can you see with Clarity? Can you see into the darkness of the deepest Ocean and not run back to the light?" ..walk away if the gap is too big. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 2, 2017 15:23:25 GMT -5
Ha ha, that's because talking about it is unreal. But being is real, correct? That is why I keep saying 'All in Presence only'. Jed was a coward in that way. You are not. No, I would say Jed was being completely honest, like peeling an onion. (I can explain that, but I think maybe you'll get it). |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 2, 2017 15:24:37 GMT -5
As I'm now getting a sense of the character called Jed from reading his own words, please explain his cowardice. Yes Being is real. He is unable to take off the Mask. Even among his 'friends' who haven't got a clue about his true identity... and absolutely no one knows his real Self. See last post. (There isn't a Jed....he's like, upon arising, or in every minute, OK, what (who) will I "wear" today?) |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 2, 2017 15:32:09 GMT -5
The question of true Self generated some discussion, so here is some vomit on the subject. Truth exists. This looks convincing, does it not? Comforting and cosy, something to hold on to in this vast ocean of 'what the f*ck is going on, I I need a rudder!'. But. Is the tree true? Is Jed McKenna true? Is the sun true? Where is true? It does not exist. 'True' arises in the conceptual framework of the Mind. 'MY Self' as is known to most humans - has no existential Reality, a collection of stored neural pathways and perceptual schematics. But here is the paradox, of course. There is no point in denying that we, each one of us, still feel unique, continuous of our being. We feel the centre whioch makes us - us. Stardustpilgrim said: "It seems that for most people here there isn't an individuated true self or essence, there is merely Self, or the body as response to the cosmos, the mind-body being an expression of the whole cosmos. But for me, yes, there is an individuated essence, true self."My entire being, too, objects to the belief in the absence of individualted Self. This belief throws people off exactly because it is so contradictory to their being, to how they experience and interact with the world. This was one of my points of divergence with Jed, who kept insisting (until very recenty, crazy son of a b*tch) - 'no self'. But Jed has books to sell and students to fool. I don't. This is indeed THE IRONY... spiritual 'teachings' tell us there is no true self at all, yet many a teacher is well set up and thriving. Have you ever questioned why they shamelessly teach humans b*ullsh*t? And have you ever wondered just WHY the three major religions/spiritual thoughts of the world are different in the way they address certain things? I have an answer to that, but it is outside of this particular instance of vomit. Our true Selves have been suppressed, continuously lasered out of us, we were presented with millions of reflections of others, mirrored them, integrated what is not us - into our psyche. It started at birth, with the first breath when the good doctor placed you on your mum's chest and said 'Hey, he is a whopper'.. Take all that indoctrination out, take ALL OF IT out.. what is left? Nothing? Really? Have another look. Maugli might have been hopping the trees in the jungle with other monekys, but he was not nothing. A dog is not nothing, it has its true Self, albeit without being aware of it. A child is NEVER born as a blank slate, and those who had a few - will tell you how dfferent they were even as babies. What is left? My true nature, as at moment of conception. Unspoilt. Natural State. What is it? Sweet? Bitter? Mighty? Canning? Callous? Concerned? Can I murder another human in cold blood? Do I like running marathons because my body needs a challenge?. Do I thrive on taking things apart to see how they work? Do I feel compelled to create a work of art? Can I overcome a fear of a bungee jump? Do I naturally keep my cool in the face of adversity or turn into a whimpering wreck? True Self is. True Self exists. If you, as you are now here, were born EXACTLY as you are - in ancient Egypt... imagine that for a minute. Now, you would worship Osiris and would charcoal your eyes and would work the field or whatever... But your ESSENCE, as is now here in the modern world - would still be the same John or Mary. You would exhibit the same preferences for certain types of food, (but it wouldn't be pizza!), drink, sleeping and sex positions. You would have the same inclinations for activities (say, sedenary versus active), you would be prone to the same illnesses, would display the same phsychological traits, the same semen count and the colour of your eyes. It is unchangeable. All that and its being consitutes your true Self. But we are talking here in this forum essentially about human 'psyche', not the colour of your eyes, right? The psyche has the same properties in each human, but it manifests according to both true Self and the experienced personal reality, i. - your unique life stories. So what the heck are you, your true Self, and why do people get so confused when encounting the question for the first time? Because it is asked outside of any context. If I asked you 'What is this apple?'.... what would you answer? There are hundreds of different angles (contexts), with which to answer this question, and each one would be correct. They will be the total sum of all that the apple is: a fruit, tasty, my favourite thing, crunchy, round, grows in Winchester, fresh smell, rots fast, full of iron etc. etc. etc.... You are the sum total of all the above, expressed in human terms. Yes, the property of crunchy-ness is universal. We are all the same undifferentiated Consciousness floating in the vast field of cosmic nothing. But YOU may be crunchier than me. Or sweeter. Or smaller. Or juicier. Or harder. And so on. So what ARE you, your true Self? An easy question to answer, the meaning of which is totally concealed by how it is framed. You KNOW your crunchy-ness or smell or rot. That is all you are, specifically and at birth. "16. What is the nature of the Self?
What exists in truth is the Self alone. The world, the individual soul, and God are appearances in
it. like silver in mother-of-pearl, these three appear at the same time, and disappear at the same
time."
Ramana Maharshi "Who Am I? - Nan Yar? The world of nondualism absconds from Reality via the Oblivion Pill of denial of what is. It insists on expressing ONLY one part of the elephant: the world of no form. But Reality is about multitudes and existence of every opposing, contradicting instance, where both form and no form co-exist without contradiction. One has to go beyond 'spiritual' teachings to Reality of what is. What Is - is right in front of one's nose and encompasses everything. That is probably the only Truth, if you still need a name, but why would you when the rain is falling, the sun is shining, your stomach is asking for food and there is a good book to read or a new message on the forum to reply to... hehe.. it is incomprehensible and totally transparent at the same time. Someone I used to know in Sri Lanka (who was not TR, but was a Human Adult, which he wouldn't even know to class himself as) said to me 'I know the beauty of me'. darn right. I know mine too. I know what/who I am <========= Ego in perpetual dance with true (higher) Self which refuses to play the human Game. "What exists in truth is the Self alone." To figure out what you really are, you can contemplate this: You are.... what is.. when no one is looking at you. I'll take this as the answer to my question in the other thread. And I'll echo SDP with another yes. When I first came to this forum I made a comment that people get stuck in the nothingness. They know what they are and that what they are is inconceivable but then stop there without letting the ramifications of that sink in. I spent the better part of the last ten years ignoring that, thinking I was done. The ramifications though! An itch that can't be scratched away when ignored. In my tradition, essence ("true self"), from the most simple definition, is that which you were born with (as). |
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