|
quotes
Jan 13, 2024 7:22:52 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 13, 2024 7:22:52 GMT -5
Your diagram, and the meaning of emanation. It's kind of like making tea, with the same teabag. The One is the teabag. Nous is your first cup. Then you use the same teabag, Soul is the second cup. Then you use the same teabag, the world of manifestation is the 3rd cup. That's a rough analogy. But I am interested. I've had interest in the past, I will take a refresher course. No. Intelligence is Plotinus’ Intellect/Nous (as in 'God's Mind) in how I see it. People can get a sense of that, no doubt. The break with any previously understood notion of reality is just above that Intellect/Nous. EVERYTHING collapses into The One/ NOTHING. How I’d express it is that Intelligence is of the highest, most inclusive substrate of order, and there’s a lot of super-sensory Being involved there. Don’t get me wrong, purddy wingding cool, so I let a lot of that stuff in with respect to what is infinitely potential. I just wouldn’t say it’s The One (per Plotinus). It’s not a judgment in that it is wrong, bad, lacking, etc, just not IT, with respect to the depth of discussions we allow here on the board. I typically would not go chatting about this stuff too much in a public domain that is mostly ordered by the consensual trance paradigm. Not wise, unless of course I needed a rent-free room. I have assumed you had a glimpse of IT back in 1975ish, but have only identified (impersonally) with said Nous/Intelligence that you felt and perhaps which nudged you past the dark night of the Soul (see Plotinus). It is my supposition that there was a lot of emotional baggage in what was dropped, and perhaps there is something of it that was worth holding on (guilt, for example, has a weasely way of finding its way back into a mix,,, much like 'survivors' guilt after a major accident involving a death). Perhaps it was a peak experience, dunno. But using it as a reference point, if you were to settle into that memory and take a good look around for what was there prior to mind (that noticed and remembers a dreamlike state playing out before its eye via sense/feeling), prior to Nous/Soul that also might inform the mind, you might notice the complete absence of person/thing. Right Here, right Now. It might be why you like to say more/further/etc. Dunno. You're trying to pour everything into the ND mold, it doesn't work that way. Tenka, for example, has talked about the levels Soul or Nous (spirit), the people he is talking to, for example ZD, have no reference for soul or spirit, inavalan also. Plotinus is talking about vibratory levels. And on the return path you can't skip any levels. You have to ~make real~ each level upward, for yourself. Let's arbitrarily assign a number to the vibratory levels. And let's double the rate of vibration of each successive level, a low number for faster, a higher number for slower vibratory level. So the One, the highest, Source, the Absolute of Plotinus would be the lowest density of matter (there is no dualism as written about by Descartes), the highest rate of vibration. So the second level moving down, emanation, Nous, would be 2. Next level, Soul, would be 4, our level, 8. So tenka, for example, is discussing levels 4 and 2. What tenka is asking, how can you say you have a realization of The One, and at the same time you don't know anything about levels 4 and 2? It's an excellent question. Now, inavalan has a model of the vibratory levels 4 and 2, but I've asked several times, do you have any actual experience of levels 4 and 2, or are you just describing a model? He hasn't answered. So to understand Plotinus, you have to ~live in~ the model of Plotinus, you have to make-it-not-a-model, but reality. You can't just say, oh, I've had a realization of The One. You see, sdp is not interested in a ND Realization of The One. sdp is interested in moving up (Richard Rose's ladder, which is essentially the enneads of Plotinus, his description), making real every moment of this world, #8, which is the way to make real the next vibratory level, #4. We have a physical body to live in this physical world. A body does not come ready-made, to live in the next vibratory level, #4. The path upward is about actually constructing a body, of the vibratory level, of each successive vibratory level. And, again, you can't skip levels. You can't jump from 8 to 2. So, for sdp, to have a ND Realization of The One, is a goal, shown, to be existentially achieved. The physical body is a chemical laboratory which is necessary to synthesize a body of the next higher vibratory level. This is what alchemy was all about, it wasn't about turning actual lead into actual gold, that was but an outer symbol according to the law of correspondence. So to understand Plotinus, you have to work within his model the way he meant it. ....And the further, I have kept mentioning, is the vibratory level, 4. If you don't have reference for it, that's means ~you've never been there~. That's why Realization is not my language, existential experience is my language. So why can you only-have a ND realization of The One? Because you can't experience it, without first traversing levels 4 and then 2. And so then, this "model" brings us all together, everybody. But it's a completely arbitrary model. It's *models* the real. That's why, First you have to row a little boat. Plotinus has a wonderful, magnificent model, but it isn't really a model. It's a ~game plan~. Somebody experiences those levels, and then brings back the ashes, the dust, the chards, the whisper, the scent, the shadow. It's a more extensive version of Plato's allegory of the cave, which isn't an allegory. To have a ND Realization, and then go back to your old life, is like Esau selling his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of beans. A glimpse is to be treated as an irresistible and irrevocable motivation, to want to live there. A ND Realization, it seems to me, as it is written about, is like a Moon mission, we planted a flag, and haven't been back in 50 years. But not even that, we had a realization of what going to the Moon, is like. Just to add a note. Seth would be of the Soul vibratory level, 4. Seth2 would be of the Nous vibratory level 2. Loosely speaking. What Gurdjieff taught was how to traverse the levels, one person at a time. And then when somebody had gotten it sufficiently, he let them teach, and then likewise. A brief reference. The Mount of Transfiguration was a glimpse, for Peter, James and John. It was just ordinary life for Jesus. Peter, James and John saw Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah. Look at what Peter said. Oh, wow!, this is f-ing fantastic good-God-almighty, let's just pitch a tent and live here. Jesus Christ!, I want to live here! But of course, Peter James and John were just ~going along for the ride~, but they had an unforgettable glimpse. They existentially experienced the next level up. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I was actually beflustered when I first read your post, I couldn't reply. I'll come back to the personal stuff.
|
|
|
quotes
Jan 13, 2024 11:17:51 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 13, 2024 11:17:51 GMT -5
Meditation is one of the most boring things a person can do. Cheri Huber
Edited, explained in post below. "Just sitting and watching is very much like meditation, and according to egocentric karmic conditioning/self hate, meditation is one of the most boring things a person can do! page 38, The Big Bamboozle by Cheri Huber 2015.
|
|
|
quotes
Jan 13, 2024 11:43:53 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 13, 2024 11:43:53 GMT -5
Here is another ace up the sleeve of the Big Bamboozle, the illusory self: Heads I win, tails you lose. Cheri Huber (somewhat paraphrased).
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jan 13, 2024 16:25:12 GMT -5
Meditation is one of the most boring things a person can do. Cheri Huber That very thought is actually an excellent opportunity for active self-inquiry.
|
|
|
quotes
Jan 13, 2024 18:30:07 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 13, 2024 18:30:07 GMT -5
Meditation is one of the most boring things a person can do. Cheri Huber That very thought is actually an excellent opportunity for active self-inquiry. Yes, the context is The Big Bamboozle (How you get conned out of the life you want and what to do about it). It's about how thoughts come to take your attention, the conversation in your head. Her not-basic name for the thingy having the conversation (it can take both sides) is the 'voices of egocentric karmic conditioning/self hate'. But, her point is the 'voekcsh', or simply, the con artist, does not like any state in which it can't steal your attention. So 'voekcsh' doesn't like meditation, because meditation is actually boring, to the con artist. The con artist (what ZD calls the little man in the head), doesn't like boring. Cheri Huber goes through 12 different strategies of the con artist, The Twelve Bamboozles, to steal our attention. The con artist isn't an anything, it's a smoke and mirrors no-thing. Boring is under #1, Distractions. I was working on the small screen, in ease, I left out the most pertinent part, meditation (or ATA-T) is boring to the con artist. Her point is, the con artist doesn't exist in the present moment, which is what true meditation is, so the con artist will try to jump in and get you to do something else less boring, like watch TV, or fold the laundry.
|
|
|
quotes
Jan 14, 2024 0:29:10 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jan 14, 2024 0:29:10 GMT -5
That very thought is actually an excellent opportunity for active self-inquiry. Yes, the context is The Big Bamboozle (How you get conned out of the life you want and what to do about it). It's about how thoughts come to take your attention, the conversation in your head. Her not-basic name for the thingy having the conversation (it can take both sides) is the 'voices of egocentric karmic conditioning/self hate'. But, her point is the 'voekcsh', or simply, the con artist, does not like any state in which it can't steal your attention. So 'voekcsh' doesn't like meditation, because meditation is actually boring, to the con artist. The con artist (what ZD calls the little man in the head), doesn't like boring. Cheri Huber goes through 12 different strategies of the con artist, The Twelve Bamboozles, to steal our attention. The con artist isn't an anything, it's a smoke and mirrors no-thing. Boring is under #1, Distractions. I was working on the small screen, in ease, I left out the most pertinent part, meditation (or ATA-T) is boring to the con artist. Her point is, the con artist doesn't exist in the present moment, which is what true meditation is, so the con artist will try to jump in and get you to do something else less boring, like watch TV, or fold the laundry. Yes, very low-hanging fruit on the neti-neti tree.
|
|
|
quotes
Jan 14, 2024 10:37:29 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 14, 2024 10:37:29 GMT -5
From The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton
THE USELESS Hui Tzu said to Chuang Tzu: "All your teaching is centered on what has no use." Chuang replied: "If you have no appreciation for what has no use You cannot begin to talk about what can be used. The earth, for example, is broad and vast But of all this expanse a man uses only a few inches Upon which he happens to be standing. Now suppose you suddenly take away All that he is not actually using So that, all around his feet a gulf Yawns, and he stands in the Void, With nowhere solid except right under each foot: How long will he be able to use what he is using?" Hui Tzu said: "It would cease to serve any purpose." Chuang Tzu concluded: "This shows The absolute necessity Of what has 'no use.' " [xxvi. 7.]
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jan 15, 2024 17:04:33 GMT -5
|
|
|
quotes
Jan 15, 2024 19:20:22 GMT -5
Post by inavalan on Jan 15, 2024 19:20:22 GMT -5
- 15:55 all trying to tackle this fundamental problem and while no
15:55 one has yet cracked it exciting progress has been made and continues to be made --- Anil Seth @ 2023 Holberg Debate "Does Consciousness Extend Beyond Brains?" The 2023 Holberg Debate, feat. Seth, Luhrman, & Sheldrake.
This is a funny quote ... How would one know that progress has been made when no solution was found yet?
|
|
|
quotes
Jan 15, 2024 19:58:45 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 15, 2024 19:58:45 GMT -5
- 15:55 all trying to tackle this fundamental problem and while no
15:55 one has yet cracked it exciting progress has been made and continues to be made --- Anil Seth @ 2023 Holberg Debate "Does Consciousness Extend Beyond Brains?" The 2023 Holberg Debate, feat. Seth, Luhrman, & Sheldrake.
This is a funny quote ... How would one know that progress has been made when no solution was found yet? Anil Seth, as far as I know, is a pure scientist. They are rigorous and operate within certain boundaries.
|
|
|
quotes
Jan 15, 2024 19:59:44 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 15, 2024 19:59:44 GMT -5
|
|
|
quotes
Jan 15, 2024 22:11:27 GMT -5
Post by inavalan on Jan 15, 2024 22:11:27 GMT -5
- 15:55 all trying to tackle this fundamental problem and while no
15:55 one has yet cracked it exciting progress has been made and continues to be made --- Anil Seth @ 2023 Holberg Debate "Does Consciousness Extend Beyond Brains?" The 2023 Holberg Debate, feat. Seth, Luhrman, & Sheldrake.
This is a funny quote ... How would one know that progress has been made when no solution was found yet? Anil Seth, as far as I know, is a pure scientist. They are rigorous and operate within certain boundaries. I disagree, but it doesn't matter. My point wasn't as much that what he said is ridiculous ( he doesn't know what the solution is, but he knows that "exciting progress has been made and continues to be made"), but that that's how detrimental beliefs are installed: you believe that you approach the solution / truth, that your work / experience points to the solution / truth, which makes you continue on the same path which could be wrong, filtering out alternatives that aren't congruent with your current "exiting progress", and which would actually lead to the solution / truth.
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jan 15, 2024 22:30:07 GMT -5
Yes, but what does " shut up" means in this case? I interpret it to mean: leave aside all your beliefs and expectations, and in a light trance, ask questions and wait for answers to pop into your mind. As asked, the woman's question has embedded in it the assumptions / beliefs that "she has a higher mind", and that "she could hear it speaking to her". She might believe (she probably believes) that she has to empty her mind, and just that might work in 20 years, or never. The clip seems funny, but we have to go beyond first impressions, if we want to progress. Surely, if you believe that you don't have to progress, or that you can't do anything about that, you won't progress.
|
|
|
quotes
Jan 15, 2024 22:34:00 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 15, 2024 22:34:00 GMT -5
Anil Seth, as far as I know, is a pure scientist. They are rigorous and operate within certain boundaries. I disagree, but it doesn't matter. My point wasn't as much that what he said is ridiculous ( he doesn't know what the solution is, but he knows that "exciting progress has been made and continues to be made"), but that that's how detrimental beliefs are installed: you believe that you approach the solution / truth, that your work / experience points to the solution / truth, which makes you continue on the same path which could be wrong, filtering out alternatives that aren't congruent with your current "exiting progress", and which would actually lead to the solution / truth. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions
|
|
|
quotes
Jan 16, 2024 21:41:34 GMT -5
Post by andrew on Jan 16, 2024 21:41:34 GMT -5
Yes, but what does " shut up" means in this case? I interpret it to mean: leave aside all your beliefs and expectations, and in a light trance, ask questions and wait for answers to pop into your mind. As asked, the woman's question has embedded in it the assumptions / beliefs that "she has a higher mind", and that "she could hear it speaking to her". She might believe (she probably believes) that she has to empty her mind, and just that might work in 20 years, or never. The clip seems funny, but we have to go beyond first impressions, if we want to progress. Surely, if you believe that you don't have to progress, or that you can't do anything about that, you won't progress. Well, it was just a youtube 'short', so I assume that Bashar expanded beyond that, he generally goes into more depth. But he also likes to throw humor into the mix, which can be useful too.
|
|