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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2020 16:09:08 GMT -5
Yes. Gurdjieff never used the term entropy, but it fits the central core of his teaching. (And most physicists say entropy gives the arrow to time). So to call the Merciless Heropass entropy, is more your own interpretation? Yes. I could run through some things to make the connection, but you would probably not be interested. But briefly, the His Endlessness first created the universe according to the principle Autoegocrat. But His Endlessness saw that because of the Merciless Heropass, His abode, The Most Holy Sun Absolute, would eventually disintegrate (that's the meaning of entropy), so His Endlessness recreated the universe according to the principle Trogoautoegocrat, which means, I eat myself. So this was a kind of food chain where one thing eats another and thus transforms energy. Up the chain (Of creation) this eventually gives the energy of renewal for The Most Holy Sun Absolute, thus avoiding Its disintegration. So yes and no. Gurdjieff doesn't use the word entropy, but it's pretty clear that this is his meaning. gurdjieff.org.gr/ae/terms/en50/gurdjieff.org.gr/ae/terms/en50/0772.htm
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2020 16:14:14 GMT -5
So to call the Merciless Heropass entropy, is more your own interpretation? Yes. I could run through some things to make the connection, but you would probably not be interested. But briefly, the His Endlessness first created the universe according to the principle Autoegocrat. But His Endlessness saw that because of the Merciless Heropass, His abode, The Most Holy Sun Absolute, would eventually disintegrate (that's the meaning of entropy), so His Endlessness recreated the universe according to the principle Trogoautoegocrat, which means, I eat myself. So this was a kind of food chain where one thing eats another and thus transforms energy. Up the chain (Of creation) this eventually gives the energy of renewal for The Most Holy Sun Absolute, thus avoiding Its disintegration. So yes and no. Gurdjieff doesn't use the word entropy, but it's pretty clear that this is his meaning. gurdjieff.org.gr/ae/terms/en50/https://gurdjieff.org.gr/ae/terms/en50/0772.htmThat's Ouroboros.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2020 16:34:20 GMT -5
No. Anybody who knows anything about Gurdjieff would never make such a claim. Ok. Another quick search found some dream appearances of him this century. I just wondered what he thought of his teachings now. He knew what to expect even before he died, 1949. He knew even in the 1920's (I think he started Beelzebub's Tales in 1924, while recuperating from a bad auto accident). He knew it's exceptionally difficult to keep the teaching accurate. The teaching is given in fragments, the person/student has to put the teaching together, that is, understand it, from interior practice. The interior practices are passed from teacher to student and the cycle continues. Without precise interior practice, the full teaching cannot be understood. Gurdjieff saw, as it happened with all inner teachings down the centuries, the teaching will eventually degrade. The outer teaching may continue, but merely as an empty form. So this is why Gurdjieff said he took on what was for him an artificial occupation as author, basically ten years out of the prime of his life (three series of books). He did this he said so that the teaching would at least be preserved, in theory.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2020 16:36:13 GMT -5
Yes. I could run through some things to make the connection, but you would probably not be interested. But briefly, the His Endlessness first created the universe according to the principle Autoegocrat. But His Endlessness saw that because of the Merciless Heropass, His abode, The Most Holy Sun Absolute, would eventually disintegrate (that's the meaning of entropy), so His Endlessness recreated the universe according to the principle Trogoautoegocrat, which means, I eat myself. So this was a kind of food chain where one thing eats another and thus transforms energy. Up the chain (Of creation) this eventually gives the energy of renewal for The Most Holy Sun Absolute, thus avoiding Its disintegration. So yes and no. Gurdjieff doesn't use the word entropy, but it's pretty clear that this is his meaning. gurdjieff.org.gr/ae/terms/en50/0772.htmThat's Ouroboros. Yes. But the Ouroboros is the entire universe. It's more like an upward spiral
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2020 16:53:22 GMT -5
Ok. Another quick search found some dream appearances of him this century. I just wondered what he thought of his teachings now. He knew what to expect even before he died, 1949. He knew even in the 1920's (I think he started Beelzebub's Tales in 1924, while recuperating from a bad auto accident). He knew it's exceptionally difficult to keep the teaching accurate. The teaching is given in fragments, the person/student has to put the teaching together, that is, understand it, from interior practice. The interior practices are passed from teacher to student and the cycle continues. Without precise interior practice, the full teaching cannot be understood. Gurdjieff saw, as it happened with all inner teachings down the centuries, the teaching will eventually degrade. The outer teaching may continue, but merely as an empty form. So this is why Gurdjieff said he took on what was for him an artificial occupation as author, basically ten years out of the prime of his life (three series of books). He did this he said so that the teaching would at least be preserved, in theory. Do you still believe that there have been no further transmissions by him post-1949?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2020 16:54:58 GMT -5
Yes. But the Ouroboros is the entire universe. It's more like an upward spiral The downward spiral is equally abundant.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2020 18:00:50 GMT -5
Yes. But the Ouroboros is the entire universe. It's more like an upward spiral The downward spiral is equally abundant. Yes.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2020 18:11:24 GMT -5
He knew what to expect even before he died, 1949. He knew even in the 1920's (I think he started Beelzebub's Tales in 1924, while recuperating from a bad auto accident). He knew it's exceptionally difficult to keep the teaching accurate. The teaching is given in fragments, the person/student has to put the teaching together, that is, understand it, from interior practice. The interior practices are passed from teacher to student and the cycle continues. Without precise interior practice, the full teaching cannot be understood. Gurdjieff saw, as it happened with all inner teachings down the centuries, the teaching will eventually degrade. The outer teaching may continue, but merely as an empty form. So this is why Gurdjieff said he took on what was for him an artificial occupation as author, basically ten years out of the prime of his life (three series of books). He did this he said so that the teaching would at least be preserved, in theory. Do you still believe that there have been no further transmissions by him post-1949? That's actually a complicated question. Speculating, he could have possibly communicated to a conscious man #7, possibly to a conscious man #6. If such were the case it would not be for public consumption. But not very likely, say less that 1% probability, to a channeler.
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Post by krsnaraja on Feb 4, 2020 18:24:50 GMT -5
The merciless heropass is Krsna " I Am Time" , says Krsna In an article, Mathuresa Dasa says: "In the Bhagavad-Gita, Lord Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, gives his own answer in a few words. 'Time I am. The great destroyer of the worlds.' Time, according to the Gita and other Vedic literatures, is an inconceivable energy of the Supreme Lord, through which He ultimately destroys everything." Then Krsna is an illusion. Case closed. Even Tolle reads Bhagavad-gita for his reference. Chapter 11: The Universal Form TEXT 32 sri-bhagavan uvaca kalo 'smi loka-ksaya-krt pravrddho lokan samahartum iha pravrttah rte 'pi tvam na bhavisyanti sarve ye 'vasthitah pratyanikesu yodhah SYNONYMS sri bhagavan uvaca—the Personality of Godhead said; kalah—time; asmi—I am; loka—the worlds; ksaya-krt—destroyer; pravrddhah—to engage; lokan—all people; samahartum—to destroy; iha—in this world; pravrttah—to engage; rte api—without even; tvam—you; na—never; bhavisyanti—will be; sarve—all; ye—who; avasthitah—situated; pratyanikesu—on the opposite side; yodhah—the soldiers. TRANSLATION The Blessed Lord said: Time I am, destroyer of the worlds, and I have come to engage all people. With the exception of you [the Pandavas], all the soldiers here on both sides will be slain. PURPORT Although Arjuna knew that Krsna was his friend and the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he was nonetheless puzzled by the various forms exhibited by Krsna. Therefore he asked further about the actual mission of this devastating force. It is written in the Vedas that the Supreme Truth destroys everything, even Brahma. Yasya brahme ca ksatram ca ubhe bhavata odanah/mrtyur yasyopasecanam ka ittha veda yatra sah. Eventually all the brahmanas, ksatriyas and everyone else are devoured by the Supreme. This form of the Supreme Lord is an all-devouring giant, and here Krsna presents Himself in that form of all-devouring time. Except for a few Pandavas, everyone who was present in that battlefield would be devoured by Him. Arjuna was not in favor of the fight, and he thought it was better not to fight; then there would be no frustration. In reply, the Lord is saying that even if he did not fight, every one of them would be destroyed, for that is His plan. If he stopped fighting, they would die in another way. Death cannot be checked, even if he did not fight. In fact, they were already dead. Time is destruction, and all manifestations are to be vanquished by the desire of the Supreme Lord. That is the law of nature.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2020 18:38:56 GMT -5
Just ran a quick search and it says that the Merciless Heropass is Time.. ?? The merciless heropass is Krsna " I Am Time" , says Krsna In an article, Mathuresa Dasa says: "In the Bhagavad-Gita, Lord Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, gives his own answer in a few words. 'Time I am. The great destroyer of the worlds.' Time, according to the Gita and other Vedic literatures, is an inconceivable energy of the Supreme Lord, through which He ultimately destroys everything." This is essentially what Gurdjieff says. But he calls time the unique subjective in the Whole of the universe. IOW, time isn't a something, but disintegration results from time. This is why I say Gurdjieff was actually talking about entropy. He would also say the Bhagavad Gita and the other Vedas came from the Conscious Circle of Humanity.
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Post by krsnaraja on Feb 4, 2020 19:14:41 GMT -5
The merciless heropass is Krsna " I Am Time" , says Krsna In an article, Mathuresa Dasa says: "In the Bhagavad-Gita, Lord Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, gives his own answer in a few words. 'Time I am. The great destroyer of the worlds.' Time, according to the Gita and other Vedic literatures, is an inconceivable energy of the Supreme Lord, through which He ultimately destroys everything." This is essentially what Gurdjieff says. But he calls time the unique subjective in the Whole of the universe. IOW, time isn't a something, but disintegration results from time. This is why I say Gurdjieff was actually talking about entropy. He would also say the Bhagavad Gita and the other Vedas came from the Conscious Circle of Humanity. We have a dictum in our organization, Knights of Columbus. It says, " Tempus fugit. Memento Mori." It means Time flies. Remember death. We build milestones with time. Birthdays and time of death. A human being is measured in his tomb the time of his birth and death. Wedding anniversaries, 911-it was associated with rescue but people see 911 as the destruction of the Twin Towers of New York, USA.
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Post by zin on Feb 9, 2020 20:40:16 GMT -5
These are related to a climb up towards the source, right? I have been reading on the 'worlds'.. and thinking on what is it that's 'left behind' while going through world 48 to world 24, for example. You may give an overall answer like 'personality' but I wonder about the specifics.
I read from Bennett that in world 48 we are like objects, and experiences do not have an inner counterpart. Then in world 24 we have our 'true selves', we live a natural life there but this is lived with the exclusion of others (other people). World 12 is about "I", "becoming liberated from laws of the selfhood" etc..
I don't know what kind of 'identity' is left in world 12? These may sound like too many constructs but the familiarity of the terms is valuable for a common language, at least in a Gurdjieff-related talk.
You can bring all that down to right now. You can bring all that down to energy. You are either gaining energy or losing energy. We are either transforming energy or wasting energy. Any move upward must necessarily take place right now. The move upward is just that, vertical. The horizontal movement is in time, the movement of past, present, future. Real movement is not a movement in time, horizontally. If we deal with ordinary energy, this is a movement in time. For us this is world 48. But where are the planets? (.....) For the time being I will write only for the above part of your post. Bennett talks about energies, and I am interested in his definitions of conscious energy and creative energy (he says the latter is related to world 6). He tells a bit on their effects:
"One of the ways in which the creative energy works in us is in the revelation of our own nothingness. If consciousness shows us that we are asleep, creativity shows us that we are nothing at all. The conscious energy can produce in us the feeling that 'I' am seeing my sleep. Before the creative energy the 'I' vanishes altogether and nothing at all is left. ... even if only for a moment, we are dead to ourselves and to the world. It is said that "to 'do' we must give up the illusion of doing".
Imo the 'I' feeling, the transformation of energies, the problem of identity are all related to 'going towards unity'. And I don't know how it can feel more personal than that : ) He says we are afraid of transformation of conscious energy in us (its transformation into creative energy) because then our feeling of I disappears and this is like annihilation.. I don't know whether it feels exactly like that but I do have a sense that 'I' is a way.
Still, I am not sure whether individuality gets lost at any point. I find it most interesting that to participate in world 12 or world 6, one needs to have a 'vehicle', the 'higher being body'. If going up means annihilation, why the need for another body? (I read and write sometimes on this sometimes on that, from among the subjects in this thread; hope it's not a problem).
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 10, 2020 0:34:14 GMT -5
You can bring all that down to right now. You can bring all that down to energy. You are either gaining energy or losing energy. We are either transforming energy or wasting energy. Any move upward must necessarily take place right now. The move upward is just that, vertical. The horizontal movement is in time, the movement of past, present, future. Real movement is not a movement in time, horizontally. If we deal with ordinary energy, this is a movement in time. For us this is world 48. But where are the planets? (.....) For the time being I will write only for the above part of your post. Bennett talks about energies, and I am interested in his definitions of conscious energy and creative energy (he says the latter is related to world 6). He tells a bit on their effects: "One of the ways in which the creative energy works in us is in the revelation of our own nothingness. If consciousness shows us that we are asleep, creativity shows us that we are nothing at all. The conscious energy can produce in us the feeling that 'I' am seeing my sleep. Before the creative energy the 'I' vanishes altogether and nothing at all is left. ... even if only for a moment, we are dead to ourselves and to the world. It is said that "to 'do' we must give up the illusion of doing". Imo the 'I' feeling, the transformation of energies, the problem of identity are all related to 'going towards unity'. And I don't know how it can feel more personal than that : ) He says we are afraid of transformation of conscious energy in us (its transformation into creative energy) because then our feeling of I disappears and this is like annihilation.. I don't know whether it feels exactly like that but I do have a sense that 'I' is a way.
Still, I am not sure whether individuality gets lost at any point. I find it most interesting that to participate in world 12 or world 6, one needs to have a 'vehicle', the 'higher being body'. If going up means annihilation, why the need for another body? (I read and write sometimes on this sometimes on that, from among the subjects in this thread; hope it's not a problem).
I will answer only in part for now (as it will be late tomorrow for you if I reply tomorrow). We are two, personality and essence. This quote is related to essence: "A man (meaning woman too, of course) is unable say what he himself really is". Mostly what we know of ourselves, is personality. Our usual sense of self is from personality. So where is our sense of identity derived from? This sense of annihilation, is annihilation of personality, is sensed, as in cognitive, by personality. Higher bodies are always related to essence. The realization of one's nothingness is a positive thing. You can (use this to) connect some (of your) dots... Edit: Consider a seed. A seed is kernel and shell. The kernel is the essence, the shell is the personality. The very purpose of the outer shell is to protect the kernel until it is ready to germinate, but then the shell dies, it cracks open and dies. Everything in your post can be applied to this, symbol. But the symbol only goes so far. Process, unfolding, time, but conditions are necessary. If you placed an acorn on a shelf, it will never germinate. What Bennett writes about is very advanced. If one doesn't save energy even in small ways, there is no energy to transform. If there is no energy to transform, then these finer energies become impossible. Is there unnecessary tension in the body? Turn on water to a drip. It looks like nothing. But put a pot under the drip, and come back in 12 hours and look. Constant mind-chatter wastes energy. Negative emotions, an enormous waste of energy. One other thing, I've also heard it said: If one is in Philadelphia and wishes to go to New York, must leave Philadelphia.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 11, 2020 9:36:32 GMT -5
You can bring all that down to right now. You can bring all that down to energy. You are either gaining energy or losing energy. We are either transforming energy or wasting energy. Any move upward must necessarily take place right now. The move upward is just that, vertical. The horizontal movement is in time, the movement of past, present, future. Real movement is not a movement in time, horizontally. If we deal with ordinary energy, this is a movement in time. For us this is world 48. But where are the planets? (.....) For the time being I will write only for the above part of your post. Bennett talks about energies, and I am interested in his definitions of conscious energy and creative energy (he says the latter is related to world 6). He tells a bit on their effects: "One of the ways in which the creative energy works in us is in the revelation of our own nothingness. If consciousness shows us that we are asleep, creativity shows us that we are nothing at all. The conscious energy can produce in us the feeling that 'I' am seeing my sleep. Before the creative energy the 'I' vanishes altogether and nothing at all is left. ... even if only for a moment, we are dead to ourselves and to the world. It is said that "to 'do' we must give up the illusion of doing". Imo the 'I' feeling, the transformation of energies, the problem of identity are all related to 'going towards unity'. And I don't know how it can feel more personal than that : ) He says we are afraid of transformation of conscious energy in us (its transformation into creative energy) because then our feeling of I disappears and this is like annihilation.. I don't know whether it feels exactly like that but I do have a sense that 'I' is a way.
Still, I am not sure whether individuality gets lost at any point. I find it most interesting that to participate in world 12 or world 6, one needs to have a 'vehicle', the 'higher being body'. If going up means annihilation, why the need for another body? (I read and write sometimes on this sometimes on that, from among the subjects in this thread; hope it's not a problem).
I will add one thing, or two. To experience this world (48), you need a physical body, that is, a body formed from the material of this world. You need eyes and ears and tongue and nose and the sense of touch. The senses decode certain vibrations and the brain turns them into light and sound, etc. Now, the teaching says that the two higher centers are always functioning, broadcasting, but we do not hear them. We do not have a receiving apparatus capable of "hearing" the higher centers, the finer energy. Now understand the need of the higher bodies? This may be metaphor, maybe not. You have heard of cosmic rays? You know the sun itself emanates energy, part of it is the solar wind. Therein arises the Aurora Borealis. The physical body starts out as egg and sperm, si12. The DNA informs the cells of the organism, a new do, how to divide and multiply, and with nourishment by the mother the embryo grows. So si12 is necessary for a new organism, a new human being that begins in the mother; or, and this is also spoken about in Taoist alchemy, a second body. si12 + mi12 results in do6. A body for world 24 (that receives higher emotional center). ........You probably have a fruit, or other food, maybe a certain dish from Turkey that I have never tasted. You could describe it in multiple words, but I could never come to know what it tastes like by words. You could give the recipe, but I could never know from reading the recipe what the dish tastes like. But the tongue can experience the taste of the new and different.
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Post by zin on Feb 13, 2020 21:32:43 GMT -5
For the time being I will write only for the above part of your post. Bennett talks about energies, and I am interested in his definitions of conscious energy and creative energy (he says the latter is related to world 6). He tells a bit on their effects: "One of the ways in which the creative energy works in us is in the revelation of our own nothingness. If consciousness shows us that we are asleep, creativity shows us that we are nothing at all. The conscious energy can produce in us the feeling that 'I' am seeing my sleep. Before the creative energy the 'I' vanishes altogether and nothing at all is left. ... even if only for a moment, we are dead to ourselves and to the world. It is said that "to 'do' we must give up the illusion of doing". Imo the 'I' feeling, the transformation of energies, the problem of identity are all related to 'going towards unity'. And I don't know how it can feel more personal than that : ) He says we are afraid of transformation of conscious energy in us (its transformation into creative energy) because then our feeling of I disappears and this is like annihilation.. I don't know whether it feels exactly like that but I do have a sense that 'I' is a way.
Still, I am not sure whether individuality gets lost at any point. I find it most interesting that to participate in world 12 or world 6, one needs to have a 'vehicle', the 'higher being body'. If going up means annihilation, why the need for another body? (I read and write sometimes on this sometimes on that, from among the subjects in this thread; hope it's not a problem).
I will answer only in part for now (as it will be late tomorrow for you if I reply tomorrow). We are two, personality and essence. This quote is related to essence: "A man (meaning woman too, of course) is unable say what he himself really is". Mostly what we know of ourselves, is personality. Our usual sense of self is from personality. So where is our sense of identity derived from? This sense of annihilation, is annihilation of personality, is sensed, as in cognitive, by personality. Higher bodies are always related to essence. The realization of one's nothingness is a positive thing. You can (use this to) connect some (of your) dots... Edit: Consider a seed. A seed is kernel and shell. The kernel is the essence, the shell is the personality. The very purpose of the outer shell is to protect the kernel until it is ready to germinate, but then the shell dies, it cracks open and dies. Everything in your post can be applied to this, symbol. But the symbol only goes so far. Process, unfolding, time, but conditions are necessary. If you placed an acorn on a shelf, it will never germinate. (...) In world 48 we depend on outside stimulation, and we "experience ourselves only through asserting ourselves against an external impact". Somebody offends us and we defend ourselves or someone gives us a praise and we swagger.. Bennett calls this "a fictitious sort of identity with the shell of the personality in the middle to keep it going." So I see why that can be called a false sense of self, meaning the source of this 'sense' is the outside. And here I think some advices like seeing both the positive and negative in a situation, or being aware of both inside and outside of ourselves can change this 'sense of self' at least temporarily (& this almost reminds me of bringing down some of the 'buffers'). About bodies.. maybe when you create the body you are also creating the 'world' of it.. enlarging the universe? just an idea.. Thanks for the replies. I will write some more later, separately.
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