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Post by zendancer on Sept 21, 2014 11:33:03 GMT -5
SDP: What if you saw, clearly, that you were an actor in a script from which no deviation was possible, and that your role, despite all appearances, could not be escaped or altered in any sense whatsoever? What if you saw, clearly, that no matter what was happening, and no matter what anyone might think (including "you"), every single action "your body" took was because it was part of the underlying script? What if you saw that the script included the sense of being an actor separate from the script, but also included the possibility of realizing the underlying truth and becoming free from the sense of being a separate actor?
If you saw this, clearly, then you would realize that every single thought arising in "your" mind was not really "yours," and "you" would realize that everything "you" saw happening also had nothing to do with "you." IOW, no matter what "you" did, or what "you" thought, it would all be part of a script written, directed, staged, and acted out by something vast and unknowable.
If "you" saw this, clearly, could "you" not then relax and participate in whatever was happening without having to think about it? Would "you" not see that everything would be out of "your" hands? Would "you" not realize that even the thought, "Not having free will is unfair," or "I hate people saying that free will or volition is an illusion," would be thoughts that were also written into the script? Would you not realize that it would be impossible to even think a thought that was not part of the script?
If you saw all of this, clearly, would it not lead to a great sense of relaxation, freedom, and peace? There would be no "you" to worry about anything, expect anything, hope for anything, or resist anything. There would be no "you" who would need to think about anything concerning "you" because "you" would not exist separate from the action required by the script. You would simply be an actor in a play, playing a role, and watching the play unfold before your eyes. Whatever you thought, or said, or did in each moment could never be "wrong" because whatever you thought, or said, or did in each moment would be "your" role, and you would never know in advance what that role would entail. You would simply do what you felt needed to be done in each moment knowing that whatever you did would be perfectly so.
If you saw this, clearly, you would see that the body grew from childhood to adulthood without "you" having had anything to do with it. You would see that the body breathes, pumps blood, and transmits nerve impulses without "you." You would see that it sees, feels, hears, tastes, smells, walks, and talks without "you." You would see that thoughts appear in a field of consciousness that "you" do not generate because "you" wouldn't know how to generate thoughts even if "you" wanted to. You would see that the entire cosmos is functioning perfectly in accordance with an incomprehensibly complex script (for lack of a better word), that "you" had nothing to do with, and which "you" cannot in any way alter. You would see that if "your" ear develops an itch, "your" hand automatically reaches up to scratch it without any effort or thought on "your" part. "You" would see that beneath all surface appearances, or thoughts, an infinite number of unimaginable happenings are occurring behind even the simplest action that the body might perform.
If you saw all of this, clearly, could you not then relax, let go, and simply enjoy being what you are, knowing that everything is in the hands of something much much vaster than "you?"
This is just a story/mind experiment, of course, that was perhaps generated as part of a script (ha ha), but can the reading of it, and the contemplation of it, suggest to you why someone who saw this sort of thing clearly, might feel deeply relaxed and at peace with the world just as it is? Can you get a sense of how someone who saw such a thing might be willing to accept whatever happens with great equanimity, and also feel a deep reverence for the SOI that is, or might be, at the heart of both the script and the entire cosmos?
Can you see how someone who saw such a thing might realize that she, the script, and the SOI were one, and that any idea of separation would be an idea, only? Can you see how that kind of seeing might free one from attaching any importance to ideas of any kind?
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 21, 2014 11:46:55 GMT -5
SDP: What if you saw, clearly, that you were an actor is a script from which no deviation was possible, and that your role, despite all appearances, could not be escaped or altered in any sense whatsoever? What if you saw, clearly, that no matter what was happening, and no matter what anyone might think (including "you"), every single action "your body" took was because it was part of the underlying script? What if you saw that the script included the sense of being an actor separate from the script, but also included the possibility of realizing the underlying truth and becoming free from the sense of being a separate actor?
If you saw this, clearly, then you would realize that every single thought arising in "your" mind was not really "yours," and "you" would realize that everything "you" saw happening also had nothing to do with "you." IOW, no matter what "you" did, or what "you" thought, it would all be part of a script written, directed, staged, and acted out by something vast and unknowable.
If "you" saw this, clearly, could "you" not then relax and participate in whatever was happening without having to think about it? Would "you" not see that everything would be out of "your" hands? Would "you" not realize that even the thought, "Not having free will is unfair," or "I hate people saying that free will or volition is an illusion," would be thoughts that were also written into the script? Would you not realize that it would be impossible to even think a thought that was not part of the script?
If you saw all of this, clearly, would it not lead to a great sense of relaxation, freedom, and peace? There would be no "you" to worry about anything, expect anything, hope for anything, or resist anything. There would be no "you" who would need to think about anything concerning "you" because "you" would not exist separate from the action required by the script. You would simply be an actor in a play, playing a role, and watching the play unfold before your eyes. Whatever you thought, or said, or did in each moment could never be "wrong" because whatever you thought, or said, or did in each moment would be "your" role, and you would never know in advance what that role would entail. You would simply do what you felt needed to be done in each moment knowing that whatever you did would be perfectly so.
If you saw this, clearly, you would see that the body grew from childhood to adulthood without "you" having had anything to do with it. You would see that the body breathes, pumps blood, and transmits nerve impulses without "you." You would see that it sees, feels, hears, tastes, smells, walks, and talks without "you." You would see that thoughts appear in a field of consciousness that "you" do not generate because "you" wouldn't know how to generate thoughts even if "you" wanted to. You would see that the entire cosmos is functioning perfectly in accordance with an incomprehensibly complex script (for lack of a better word), that "you" had nothing to do with, and which "you" cannot in any way alter. You would see that if "your" ear develops an itch, "your" hand automatically reaches up to scratch it without any effort or thought on "your" part. "You" would see that beneath all surface appearances, or thoughts, an infinite number of unimaginable happenings are occurring behind even the simplest action that the body might perform.
If you saw all of this, clearly, could you not then relax, let go, and simply enjoy being what you are, knowing that everything is in the hands of something much much vaster than "you?"
This is just a story/mind experiment, of course, that was perhaps generated as part of a script (ha ha), but can the reading of it, and the contemplation of it, suggest to you why someone who saw this sort of thing clearly, might feel deeply relaxed and at peace with the world just as it is? Can you get a sense of how someone who saw such a thing might be willing to accept whatever happens with great equanimity, and also feel a deep reverence for the SOI that is, or might be, at the heart of both the script and the entire cosmos?
Can you see how someone who saw such a thing might realize that she, the script, and the SOI were one, and that any idea of separation would be an idea, only? Can you see how that kind of seeing might free one from attaching any importance to ideas of any kind? Ahhh..
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Post by silver on Sept 21, 2014 12:17:12 GMT -5
SDP: What if you saw, clearly, that you were an actor in a script from which no deviation was possible, and that your role, despite all appearances, could not be escaped or altered in any sense whatsoever? What if you saw, clearly, that no matter what was happening, and no matter what anyone might think (including "you"), every single action "your body" took was because it was part of the underlying script? What if you saw that the script included the sense of being an actor separate from the script, but also included the possibility of realizing the underlying truth and becoming free from the sense of being a separate actor? If you saw this, clearly, then you would realize that every single thought arising in "your" mind was not really "yours," and "you" would realize that everything "you" saw happening also had nothing to do with "you." IOW, no matter what "you" did, or what "you" thought, it would all be part of a script written, directed, staged, and acted out by something vast and unknowable. If "you" saw this, clearly, could "you" not then relax and participate in whatever was happening without having to think about it? Would "you" not see that everything would be out of "your" hands? Would "you" not realize that even the thought, "Not having free will is unfair," or "I hate people saying that free will or volition is an illusion," would be thoughts that were also written into the script? Would you not realize that it would be impossible to even think a thought that was not part of the script? If you saw all of this, clearly, would it not lead to a great sense of relaxation, freedom, and peace? There would be no "you" to worry about anything, expect anything, hope for anything, or resist anything. There would be no "you" who would need to think about anything concerning "you" because "you" would not exist separate from the action required by the script. You would simply be an actor in a play, playing a role, and watching the play unfold before your eyes. Whatever you thought, or said, or did in each moment could never be "wrong" because whatever you thought, or said, or did in each moment would be "your" role, and you would never know in advance what that role would entail. You would simply do what you felt needed to be done in each moment knowing that whatever you did would be perfectly so. If you saw this, clearly, you would see that the body grew from childhood to adulthood without "you" having had anything to do with it. You would see that the body breathes, pumps blood, and transmits nerve impulses without "you." You would see that it sees, feels, hears, tastes, smells, walks, and talks without "you." You would see that thoughts appear in a field of consciousness that "you" do not generate because "you" wouldn't know how to generate thoughts even if "you" wanted to. You would see that the entire cosmos is functioning perfectly in accordance with an incomprehensibly complex script (for lack of a better word), that "you" had nothing to do with, and which "you" cannot in any way alter. You would see that if "your" ear develops an itch, "your" hand automatically reaches up to scratch it without any effort or thought on "your" part. "You" would see that beneath all surface appearances, or thoughts, an infinite number of unimaginable happenings are occurring behind even the simplest action that the body might perform. If you saw all of this, clearly, could you not then relax, let go, and simply enjoy being what you are, knowing that everything is in the hands of something much much vaster than "you?" This is just a story/mind experiment, of course, that was perhaps generated as part of a script (ha ha), but can the reading of it, and the contemplation of it, suggest to you why someone who saw this sort of thing clearly, might feel deeply relaxed and at peace with the world just as it is? Can you get a sense of how someone who saw such a thing might be willing to accept whatever happens with great equanimity, and also feel a deep reverence for the SOI that is, or might be, at the heart of both the script and the entire cosmos? Can you see how someone who saw such a thing might realize that she, the script, and the SOI were one, and that any idea of separation would be an idea, only? Can you see how that kind of seeing might free one from attaching any importance to ideas of any kind? I forget what SOI means, but yes, I can see that. Even IF it's just another theory, I like it.
Shame on you, Tzu - clever, though. (**silver snicker**)
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Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2014 12:39:37 GMT -5
The world that IS is the world we have created, apart from imagining it differently than it 'is'....
IF i were given the task of creating a Universe, i would copy this one.. put the raw material for existence (energy) in place, give it freewill to manifest its evolution, and let it reveal itself to itself.. allowing its destiny to change with each choice it makes.. i would let creation discover itself..
It's not 'perfect', it just 'is'.. perfection is a localized belief about what 'is'.. Why is it so hard to see the simple truth of these statements? Why is it that our world doesn't seem to be the best of all possible worlds, above described? Why do we look out and see a nasty world? It's this free will thing, opposing wills conflict, invariably. And certain people impose their will upon others, they try to limit other's will by imposing their own will. If SOI tried to install governing, safe-limits to eliminate pain and suffering (the excellent film The Giver is about a utopian world trying to deal with these issues), then life becomes just a video game where we can just push the start-over button. Then we would really learn nothing from experience. sdp Do you really think you could get every individual, or even a majority of them to agree on what you mean by "best of all possible worlds"?
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Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2014 12:47:12 GMT -5
SDP: What if you saw, clearly, that you were an actor in a script from which no deviation was possible, and that your role, despite all appearances, could not be escaped or altered in any sense whatsoever? What if you saw, clearly, that no matter what was happening, and no matter what anyone might think (including "you"), every single action "your body" took was because it was part of the underlying script? What if you saw that the script included the sense of being an actor separate from the script, but also included the possibility of realizing the underlying truth and becoming free from the sense of being a separate actor? If you saw this, clearly, then you would realize that every single thought arising in "your" mind was not really "yours," and "you" would realize that everything "you" saw happening also had nothing to do with "you." IOW, no matter what "you" did, or what "you" thought, it would all be part of a script written, directed, staged, and acted out by something vast and unknowable. If "you" saw this, clearly, could "you" not then relax and participate in whatever was happening without having to think about it? Would "you" not see that everything would be out of "your" hands? Would "you" not realize that even the thought, "Not having free will is unfair," or "I hate people saying that free will or volition is an illusion," would be thoughts that were also written into the script? Would you not realize that it would be impossible to even think a thought that was not part of the script? If you saw all of this, clearly, would it not lead to a great sense of relaxation, freedom, and peace? There would be no "you" to worry about anything, expect anything, hope for anything, or resist anything. There would be no "you" who would need to think about anything concerning "you" because "you" would not exist separate from the action required by the script. You would simply be an actor in a play, playing a role, and watching the play unfold before your eyes. Whatever you thought, or said, or did in each moment could never be "wrong" because whatever you thought, or said, or did in each moment would be "your" role, and you would never know in advance what that role would entail. You would simply do what you felt needed to be done in each moment knowing that whatever you did would be perfectly so. If you saw this, clearly, you would see that the body grew from childhood to adulthood without "you" having had anything to do with it. You would see that the body breathes, pumps blood, and transmits nerve impulses without "you." You would see that it sees, feels, hears, tastes, smells, walks, and talks without "you." You would see that thoughts appear in a field of consciousness that "you" do not generate because "you" wouldn't know how to generate thoughts even if "you" wanted to. You would see that the entire cosmos is functioning perfectly in accordance with an incomprehensibly complex script (for lack of a better word), that "you" had nothing to do with, and which "you" cannot in any way alter. You would see that if "your" ear develops an itch, "your" hand automatically reaches up to scratch it without any effort or thought on "your" part. "You" would see that beneath all surface appearances, or thoughts, an infinite number of unimaginable happenings are occurring behind even the simplest action that the body might perform. If you saw all of this, clearly, could you not then relax, let go, and simply enjoy being what you are, knowing that everything is in the hands of something much much vaster than "you?" This is just a story/mind experiment, of course, that was perhaps generated as part of a script (ha ha), but can the reading of it, and the contemplation of it, suggest to you why someone who saw this sort of thing clearly, might feel deeply relaxed and at peace with the world just as it is? Can you get a sense of how someone who saw such a thing might be willing to accept whatever happens with great equanimity, and also feel a deep reverence for the SOI that is, or might be, at the heart of both the script and the entire cosmos? Can you see how someone who saw such a thing might realize that she, the script, and the SOI were one, and that any idea of separation would be an idea, only? Can you see how that kind of seeing might free one from attaching any importance to ideas of any kind? I forget what SOI means, but yes, I can see that. Even IF it's just another theory, I like it. Supreme Ordering Intelligence. It's the 'pilgrims idea. Shame on you, Tzu - clever, though. (**silver snicker**)
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Post by silver on Sept 21, 2014 13:01:31 GMT -5
Oh...I wondered where his post and my response went to...
Here's a portion of my response:
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Post by zendancer on Sept 21, 2014 13:06:39 GMT -5
SOI is a sanitized synonym for the word "God" or whatever one wants to call the Infinite/Absolute.
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Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2014 13:24:31 GMT -5
SOI is a sanitized synonym for the word "God" or whatever one wants to call the Infinite/Absolute.
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Post by enigma on Sept 21, 2014 13:53:50 GMT -5
Why is it so hard to see the simple truth of these statements? Why is it that our world doesn't seem to be the best of all possible worlds, above described? Why do we look out and see a nasty world? It's this free will thing, opposing wills conflict, invariably. And certain people impose their will upon others, they try to limit other's will by imposing their own will. If SOI tried to install governing, safe-limits to eliminate pain and suffering (the excellent film The Giver is about a utopian world trying to deal with these issues), then life becomes just a video game where we can just push the start-over button. Then we would really learn nothing from experience. sdp Do you really think you could get every individual, or even a majority of them to agree on what you mean by "best of all possible worlds"? Yes, that's the same monkey wrench I was trying to throw into Silver's argument for a better world. If we all had a common vision for how we wanted it to be, I guess it would pretty much be that way. God really doesn't have much to do with it.
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Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2014 13:57:53 GMT -5
Do you really think you could get every individual, or even a majority of them to agree on what you mean by "best of all possible worlds"? Yes, that's the same monkey wrench I was trying to throw into Silver's argument for a better world. If we all had a common vision for how we wanted it to be, I guess it would pretty much be that way. God really doesn't have much to do with it. ZD's inquiry sort of naturally leads to that idea: "best of all possible worlds", and in that, for me, the absurdity of the notion of the individual as God becomes apparent, really quickly.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 21, 2014 19:13:34 GMT -5
Why is it so hard to see the simple truth of these statements? Why is it that our world doesn't seem to be the best of all possible worlds, above described? Why do we look out and see a nasty world? It's this free will thing, opposing wills conflict, invariably. And certain people impose their will upon others, they try to limit other's will by imposing their own will. If SOI tried to install governing, safe-limits to eliminate pain and suffering (the excellent film The Giver is about a utopian world trying to deal with these issues), then life becomes just a video game where we can just push the start-over button. Then we would really learn nothing from experience. sdp Do you really think you could get every individual, or even a majority of them to agree on what you mean by "best of all possible worlds"? The truth is the truth no matter if only one sees it or if everybody sees it. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I just sharing my POV. sdp
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 21, 2014 19:17:15 GMT -5
SOI is a sanitized synonym for the word "God" or whatever one wants to call the Infinite/Absolute. I've used that for a number of years. That seems to be the essence of "God" in as few words as possible, trying to eliminate a personal sense of God as one's Buddy.
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Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2014 19:19:18 GMT -5
Do you really think you could get every individual, or even a majority of them to agree on what you mean by "best of all possible worlds"? The truth is the truth no matter if only one sees it or if everybody sees it. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I just sharing my POV. sdp Are you referring to a conceptual truth? Some statement of the way things are, or the way that they should be?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 21, 2014 19:32:52 GMT -5
SDP: What if you saw, clearly, that you were an actor in a script from which no deviation was possible, and that your role, despite all appearances, could not be escaped or altered in any sense whatsoever? What if you saw, clearly, that no matter what was happening, and no matter what anyone might think (including "you"), every single action "your body" took was because it was part of the underlying script? What if you saw that the script included the sense of being an actor separate from the script, but also included the possibility of realizing the underlying truth and becoming free from the sense of being a separate actor? If you saw this, clearly, then you would realize that every single thought arising in "your" mind was not really "yours," and "you" would realize that everything "you" saw happening also had nothing to do with "you." IOW, no matter what "you" did, or what "you" thought, it would all be part of a script written, directed, staged, and acted out by something vast and unknowable. If "you" saw this, clearly, could "you" not then relax and participate in whatever was happening without having to think about it? Would "you" not see that everything would be out of "your" hands? Would "you" not realize that even the thought, "Not having free will is unfair," or "I hate people saying that free will or volition is an illusion," would be thoughts that were also written into the script? Would you not realize that it would be impossible to even think a thought that was not part of the script? If you saw all of this, clearly, would it not lead to a great sense of relaxation, freedom, and peace? There would be no "you" to worry about anything, expect anything, hope for anything, or resist anything. There would be no "you" who would need to think about anything concerning "you" because "you" would not exist separate from the action required by the script. You would simply be an actor in a play, playing a role, and watching the play unfold before your eyes. Whatever you thought, or said, or did in each moment could never be "wrong" because whatever you thought, or said, or did in each moment would be "your" role, and you would never know in advance what that role would entail. You would simply do what you felt needed to be done in each moment knowing that whatever you did would be perfectly so. If you saw this, clearly, you would see that the body grew from childhood to adulthood without "you" having had anything to do with it. You would see that the body breathes, pumps blood, and transmits nerve impulses without "you." You would see that it sees, feels, hears, tastes, smells, walks, and talks without "you." You would see that thoughts appear in a field of consciousness that "you" do not generate because "you" wouldn't know how to generate thoughts even if "you" wanted to. You would see that the entire cosmos is functioning perfectly in accordance with an incomprehensibly complex script (for lack of a better word), that "you" had nothing to do with, and which "you" cannot in any way alter. You would see that if "your" ear develops an itch, "your" hand automatically reaches up to scratch it without any effort or thought on "your" part. "You" would see that beneath all surface appearances, or thoughts, an infinite number of unimaginable happenings are occurring behind even the simplest action that the body might perform. If you saw all of this, clearly, could you not then relax, let go, and simply enjoy being what you are, knowing that everything is in the hands of something much much vaster than "you?" This is just a story/mind experiment, of course, that was perhaps generated as part of a script (ha ha), but can the reading of it, and the contemplation of it, suggest to you why someone who saw this sort of thing clearly, might feel deeply relaxed and at peace with the world just as it is? Can you get a sense of how someone who saw such a thing might be willing to accept whatever happens with great equanimity, and also feel a deep reverence for the SOI that is, or might be, at the heart of both the script and the entire cosmos? Can you see how someone who saw such a thing might realize that she, the script, and the SOI were one, and that any idea of separation would be an idea, only? Can you see how that kind of seeing might free one from attaching any importance to ideas of any kind? I can see the truth of everything you say, from a certain perspective. But from this perspective (which I will try to elaborate on a little later, probably tonight), seeing that, from that perspective (to be elaborated on), what you say would be like being in a straightjacket on death row, chained to the bars, knowing helplessness and knowing you couldn't do anything about it, not even being able to commit suicide. If you could just see this clearly.........(in all honesty)..........what you write is almost unbearable.............there are only two ways to bear it.......... sdp
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 21, 2014 19:34:33 GMT -5
The truth is the truth no matter if only one sees it or if everybody sees it. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I just sharing my POV. sdp Are you referring to a conceptual truth? Some statement of the way things are, or the way that they should be? Truth as just what is...........what is, is. sdp
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