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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 16, 2014 9:26:10 GMT -5
If you see people drowning, suffering, asleep, you'll do anything to try to shake them out of their lethargy. If there is any sense of self left you will even set that aside for their benefit. In the Eastern Orthodox Church these are called Holy Fools. Steve doesn't care how we see him. A teacher can't work directly on a student, without their permission. Nobody has forced anyone to be here on this forum. Nobody forces anyone to read posts, so in a sense you are giving permission to be acted upon by just being here. Spiritual work must be participated in always and only without coercion. Anything else is an act of leverage by ego upon ego, it leads nowhere, ego can't awaken. sdp I honest to god don't think it's about 'Steve doesn't care how we see him.' I get the rest of that, about being here voluntarily, would you have real doubts about me being that much of a wimp or something? I'm doing well enough, thank you, as far as learning, reading, and I don't feel I need any of his help. I don't see anything particularly insightful coming from him. Besides, along about then, things just went from bad to worse, and everything just got so downright childish, I went off and was reading my book and staying out of the way. I'm dumbfounded that you would think that I needed help OR that he would be a good candidate for that help, and I'm stunned at your lack of any powers of discernment in this situation. Your post was about Steve, my response was about Steve. No where in my post was I trying to indicate that silver needed his help OR that he would be a good candidate for helping you. I don't even know if what I wrote about Steve is correct, I'm just speculating. Steve has in the past had some good things to say about the spiritual journey (or non-journey). However, he doesn't seem to understand that just imparting information does anyone any good. You can't beat people over the head to force them to listen, all the histrionics don't help, they in fact hurt. I don't recall having ever suggested anyone on this forum would be a good teacher. sdp |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 16, 2014 9:36:49 GMT -5
Up to a point in terms of there being some self-reinforcing ideas there, this is something I mostly agree with and the notion of a "Holy Fool" is something I find delightfully funny.  As to whether or not Steve fits this description, there is always the duck test to keep in mind ...  The 'holy fool' thing seems to assume that there's a thin line between madness and enlightenment. It's not. Madness means being locked into the intellect, enlightened means being free from the intellect. A true Holy Fool is not mad but appears to be mad by the standards of society. They don't care if others think them mad. They can do stuff to mirror a particular person or a particular situation. They do stuff rather than say words, for the most part. There is precedent in the OT prophets. Hosea was told by God to marry (w)ho-oar. One prophet was told to go naked for two years. sdp |
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Post by figgles on Sept 16, 2014 10:16:18 GMT -5
Do you want some advice on how to deal with this stain on the face of humanity? Wull yeah, but you didn't have to word it quite like that. For whatever it's worth Silver, I don't think you need any advice on how to deal with the 'the stain'. (I know....not your words)....From where I sit, It would appear you're dealing just fine. You've actually provided a nice example of what it means to have a divergence of opinion while remaining centered and civil.... without devolving into name calling and anger, or joining in sideways conversations in agreement, when others go there. I'd say Laffy could maybe learn a thing or two about that from YOU.  |
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Post by figgles on Sept 16, 2014 10:21:16 GMT -5
What I see is that that post where I told you that "if you were not enjoying the conversation you could always go elsewhere," angered you, "What you see"? And yet, when anyone else shows your your own bile, in your own words, what comes spewing out of you like a fountain of vomit is some of the most prolific, intricate and self-deluded rationalization ever written in the history of mankind.  Seriously? A beautiful fountain to illustrate 'vomit'? Surely Chuckles, you can do a 'lil better than that?  |
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Post by enigma on Sept 16, 2014 12:11:50 GMT -5
You mean, like, all negative states are actually loooove states? Yeah, the assassination urge may be contagious. I've heard it's the shortcut to enlightenment. edit: The assassination of words has always been a tool for happy-face-stickering, i.e. denial. Seems to me some assassinate words just to make others wrong, or to suggest one has transcended the understanding. Others are trying to fit every term they encounter into their own belief system. As you suggest, some are avoiding the implications of certain ideas. (i.e. Ego is just a label for what we don't like) |
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Post by enigma on Sept 16, 2014 12:14:41 GMT -5
We're not talking about seeking permanence or pleasure or avoiding pain. We're talking about the absence of seeking. That would be the natural state. As you imply, the absence of attachment, clinging, avoidance. Ahh sorry...I thought you and Reefs were talking about natural versus un-natural states, and asking if Meditation was 'THE' natural state...as if there is a natural state and an un-natural state. But wait, that natural state that you mentioned just now, wouldn't that imply an un-natural state? If thats the natural state, then what is the un-natural state? And more importantly, which nature is it outside of, apart from....and how did it get there? The egoic state is an un-natural state. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 16, 2014 12:18:59 GMT -5
Do you want some advice on how to deal with this stain on the face of humanity? Wull yeah, but you didn't have to word it quite like that.  figgles sees the dialogs here as a contest divided into two different camps, and has repeatedly demonstrated a complete refusal to acknowledge the negativity she brings to the forum overall or in particular dialogs. Since all of the content that she sources is entangled with those fundamental self-deceptions, it all comes from a place of baseline dishonesty. There's no way to engage any of it without manifesting some of that yourself, even if you take everything she writes as if it was written by a writer at National Lampoon or The Onion. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 16, 2014 12:22:43 GMT -5
The idea that control is an illusion was one that I was exposed to soooo long ago it was pretty much part of conditioning .. .. the reality of it is soooo much more .. open.  Taking cue's from brain ticks is a deceptive nonsense. yes, but it can be interesting in some particular instances to look back after the fact and see the kernel of truth in the lie. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 16, 2014 12:24:49 GMT -5
"What you see"? And yet, when anyone else shows your your own bile, in your own words, what comes spewing out of you like a fountain of vomit is some of the most prolific, intricate and self-deluded rationalization ever written in the history of mankind. Am I right in thinking that you don't have pantomime in the States? our version is very noisy. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 16, 2014 12:28:22 GMT -5
Sure, but we were talking about mind states. I'm talking about psychological suffering, which is also a huge part of physical pain. All suffering is psychological. It begins and ends with mind identification, no? The solution seems to be acceptance of the situation as that alleviates psychological suffering, if not the pain itself, which is usually made far more bearable by its very acceptance. Niz: "Pain is physical, suffering is mental. Beyond the mind there is no suffering. Pain is merely a signal that the body is in danger and requires attention. Similarly, suffering warns us that the structure of the memories and habits, which we call the person (vyakti), is threatened by loss or change. Pain is essential for the survival of the body, but none compels you to suffer. Suffering is due entirely to clinging or resisting; it is a sign of our unwillingness to move on, to flow with life. A saint is friendly with the inevitable and therefore does not suffer." I thought your previous point was that there is a distinction: In any event, yes, suffering happens in the mind, though I don't usually try to argue that severe physical pain can be negated so that there is no suffering. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 16, 2014 12:30:12 GMT -5
Oh, the brushstrokes. This is your imagination running wild, and when you do this, when you write something that ascribes words to someone else that they didn't write, it is a form of libel.In all seriousness, if all words are ultimately acausal how can any accusation or blame of libel be assigned to a specific anyone? It's a contextual thingy. Ultimately, nobody is responsible for anything. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 16, 2014 12:35:11 GMT -5
I honest to god don't think it's about 'Steve doesn't care how we see him.' I get the rest of that, about being here voluntarily, would you have real doubts about me being that much of a wimp or something? I'm doing well enough, thank you, as far as learning, reading, and I don't feel I need any of his help. I don't see anything particularly insightful coming from him. Besides, along about then, things just went from bad to worse, and everything just got so downright childish, I went off and was reading my book and staying out of the way. I'm dumbfounded that you would think that I needed help OR that he would be a good candidate for that help, and I'm stunned at your lack of any powers of discernment in this situation. Your post was about Steve, my response was about Steve. No where in my post was I trying to indicate that silver needed his help OR that he would be a good candidate for helping you. I don't even know if what I wrote about Steve is correct, I'm just speculating. Steve has in the past had some good things to say about the spiritual journey (or non-journey). However, he doesn't seem to understand that just imparting information does anyone any good. You can't beat people over the head to force them to listen, all the histrionics don't help, they in fact hurt. I don't recall having ever suggested anyone on this forum would be a good teacher.sdp You did imply that Steve is a teacher who's techniques you validate. Did you not mean to do that? |
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Post by enigma on Sept 16, 2014 12:39:32 GMT -5
Wull yeah, but you didn't have to word it quite like that. For whatever it's worth Silver, I don't think you need any advice on how to deal with the 'the stain'. (I know....not your words)....From where I sit, It would appear you're dealing just fine. You've actually provided a nice example of what it means to have a divergence of opinion while remaining centered and civil.... without devolving into name calling and anger, or joining in sideways conversations in agreement, when others go there. I'd say Laffy could maybe learn a thing or two about that from YOU. You mean like the one you're having now, or the ones you've had many times with Andy? |
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Post by silver on Sept 16, 2014 12:43:20 GMT -5
I honest to god don't think it's about 'Steve doesn't care how we see him.' I get the rest of that, about being here voluntarily, would you have real doubts about me being that much of a wimp or something? I'm doing well enough, thank you, as far as learning, reading, and I don't feel I need any of his help. I don't see anything particularly insightful coming from him. Besides, along about then, things just went from bad to worse, and everything just got so downright childish, I went off and was reading my book and staying out of the way. I'm dumbfounded that you would think that I needed help OR that he would be a good candidate for that help, and I'm stunned at your lack of any powers of discernment in this situation.
Steve has in the past had some good things to say about the spiritual journey (or non-journey). However, he doesn't seem to understand that just imparting information does anyone any good. You can't beat people over the head to force them to listen, all the histrionics don't help, they in fact hurt.
I don't recall having ever suggested anyone on this forum would be a good teacher.sdp So true, sdp. I was just responding to what it sounded like you were saying. |
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Post by figgles on Sept 16, 2014 12:43:44 GMT -5
figgles sees the dialogs here as a contest divided into two different camps, Nah, I sometimes do see two camps, but no 'contest' and more than contributing to a more concrete division, I see the dialogs as having the potential to at least to some degree, create a bridge between those two camps. Often though, in order for bridges to be built, other structures in the vicinity need to either get torn down or at least, considered into the equation. Folks generally don't like it, and some even get very angry, when another begins pointing at those structures. If you could lose the anger, you might stop seeing conversations with divergent opinions as 'contests.' |
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