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page 72
Jun 30, 2014 11:27:50 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 11:27:50 GMT -5
The way I understood the question that Top proposed is a way of determining whether an existential question is one that holds any weight to the one asking it. If it is just an idle curiosity where the answers one way or the other won't be that much of a big deal, then maybe it's not worth it anyhoo. In my case, I know that volition/free will is a subject that keeps coming up here, and I have been idly curious about it, so I looked to see if there were any interesting cartoons that addressed the subject. I posted a few. And a discussion has ensued. But it's not causing me any suffering. More like entertainment because I don't really care which way it goes, as per Top's question. I'm guessing Top saw that I didn't have a whole lot of eggs in that basket. Have you considered how 'no volition' may change your view of yourself and others? It's only a non-serious question if it's not taken seriously. Yes, that gets back to what I thought Quinn and I were talking about. And it also addresses Top's question. I don't see it mattering much. Like self, I don't have a 'sense' of volition. When called by name I respond. I sign my name to things. But there is no 'sense' to it. Choices appear, decisions are made, but I don't 'sense' volition. Like I said originally, the sparks fly when in conversation with others about the possible lack of existence of either.
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Jun 30, 2014 11:51:07 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Jun 30, 2014 11:51:07 GMT -5
Did you choose to have that question or did that question just appear out of nowhere? To assume that folks would deliberately choose to torture themselves with existential questions is absurd. The way I understood the question that Top proposed is a way of determining whether an existential question is one that holds any weight to the one asking it. If it is just an idle curiosity where the answers one way or the other won't be that much of a big deal, then maybe it's not worth it anyhoo. In my case, I know that volition/free will is a subject that keeps coming up here, and I have been idly curious about it, so I looked to see if there were any interesting cartoons that addressed the subject. I posted a few. And a discussion has ensued. But it's not causing me any suffering. More like entertainment because I don't really care which way it goes, as per Top's question. I'm guessing Top saw that I didn't have a whole lot of eggs in that basket. Yes, that's possible. Although he talked about committing time and energy, so that sounds a bit more serious to me. The point is that asking yourself the question "What difference would the answer make?" already requires a certain degree of detachment and realization which usually is not the case.
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Jun 30, 2014 15:56:08 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Jun 30, 2014 15:56:08 GMT -5
Have you considered how 'no volition' may change your view of yourself and others? It's only a non-serious question if it's not taken seriously. Yes, that gets back to what I thought Quinn and I were talking about. And it also addresses Top's question. I don't see it mattering much. Like self, I don't have a 'sense' of volition. When called by name I respond. I sign my name to things. But there is no 'sense' to it. Choices appear, decisions are made, but I don't 'sense' volition. Like I said originally, the sparks fly when in conversation with others about the possible lack of existence of either. You have no sense of volition?
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Jun 30, 2014 20:54:24 GMT -5
Post by tzujanli on Jun 30, 2014 20:54:24 GMT -5
In that timeless instant of seeing/experiencing with the clarity of a still mind's awareness it is realized that neither volition, nor non-volition, nor absence of volition are valid topics for discussion, those topics are the distortions.. realizing that clarity resolves the conflicts, the realized experiencer advocates the clarity not amateurish psychotherapy.. Perhaps I'm addled with amateurish psychotherapy, but I'll just point out that there are only a few hours of difference between the above still mind clarity awareness and the one below: Volition is observable with a still mind's awareness So it must be that sill mind clarity awareness can observe the happening of volition while simultaneously observing the happening of it not being a valid topic for discussion. And nonetheless proceed to discuss it. Well, if people are going to tell only half the story, that 'there is no volition'.. i'm going to tell the other half of the story, that 'there is volition'.. neither are valid, but when one perspective is invoked the other mutually arises.. there's no useful result in believing in or arguing either perspective, but.. 'all that's needed for belief to prosper and distort is for it to go unchallenged'..
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Jun 30, 2014 21:49:40 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Jun 30, 2014 21:49:40 GMT -5
Did you choose to have that question or did that question just appear out of nowhere? To assume that folks would deliberately choose to torture themselves with existential questions is absurd. My experience has been that the questions appear out of nowhere, and I have no control over the mind to halt the process. Yes, that's how we can put the volition question to rest by mere intellectual investigation.
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Jun 30, 2014 21:53:09 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Jun 30, 2014 21:53:09 GMT -5
Me too. But Anka's definition of 'channeling' is no different than just creatively expressing without personal inhibition -- IOW, everyone does it or has done it, probably (coloring with crayons, playing music, dancing...). So Bashar is the character that he expresses with (along with his side career of special effects). I doubt he's maliciously making it up, just as I doubt folks claiming to have been abducted by aliens are knowingly fabricating a story. The message I've heard so far is not much more than you find anywhere else in the self-help/new age aisle. The main message being 'follow your bliss.' If he's not making it up then he believes what he's claiming. Either possibility is going to color what he has to say for me. It's always colored in some way by at least personality. Usually you also have to take into account level of mental flexibility and level of understanding/misunderstanding.
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Jun 30, 2014 21:58:51 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Jun 30, 2014 21:58:51 GMT -5
My experience has been that the questions appear out of nowhere, and I have no control over the mind to halt the process. It is possible, through meditative practices, to gain the ability to pause the foreground process indefinitely -- the question of whether the process is halted altogether (background and foreground, ie: "no thought")is just a bunch of TMT over the definitions of "mind" and "thought". This is outside of my experience, but from reading what others have written, if the ability is gained before the illusion of a separate self is seen through then a subtle and deep trap can spring in which the person believes that they have acquired mastery over their mind.That's a good point because it points at the common misconception that mastery of mind is the actual goal. Probably based on a misunderstanding of what the term 'peace of mind' is actually pointing to.
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Jun 30, 2014 22:01:50 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Jun 30, 2014 22:01:50 GMT -5
Non-volition refers to the fiction of a separate person existing as a God-puppet. Ah okay, thanks! Let me be an instrument of Thy peace. I kind of like that one. Yup. Not being in charge has to be avoided at all costs.
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Jun 30, 2014 22:03:02 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Jun 30, 2014 22:03:02 GMT -5
Ah okay, thanks! Let me be an instrument of Thy peace. I kind of like that one. .. yeah it seems popular. My guess is that the draw is the relief from letting go of worry. Yes, personal freedom is actually a burden.
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Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2014 0:08:14 GMT -5
My experience has been that the questions appear out of nowhere, and I have no control over the mind to halt the process. Yes, that's how we can put the volition question to rest by mere intellectual investigation. Yes, it's a very simple thing to notice, but it's surprising how many minds refuse to notice, or refuse to consider the implications of that.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 1, 2014 2:55:32 GMT -5
Yes, that's how we can put the volition question to rest by mere intellectual investigation. Yes, it's a very simple thing to notice, but it's surprising how many minds refuse to notice, or refuse to consider the implications of that. It's a question of sincerity or maybe even urgency, I guess.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 1, 2014 5:25:28 GMT -5
Did you choose to have that question or did that question just appear out of nowhere? To assume that folks would deliberately choose to torture themselves with existential questions is absurd. My experience has been that the questions appear out of nowhere, and I have no control over the mind to halt the process. In my experience some questions appear out of nowhere, and some questions are constructed.. a journalist will likely construct questions in such a way as to get a desired answer, much like many of the questions asked on this forum.. many questions asked on this forum are contrived to make a point or to trap someone with whom the questioner disagrees, genuine curiosity is a rare commodity among those believing they already have the answers..
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Post by quinn on Jul 1, 2014 6:42:10 GMT -5
My experience has been that the questions appear out of nowhere, and I have no control over the mind to halt the process. Yes, that's how we can put the volition question to rest by mere intellectual investigation. I don't see how investigation or putting anything to rest relates to what djembe said. He's only describing his experience of questions arising and his experience of trying to control.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 8:02:04 GMT -5
Perhaps I'm addled with amateurish psychotherapy, but I'll just point out that there are only a few hours of difference between the above still mind clarity awareness and the one below: So it must be that sill mind clarity awareness can observe the happening of volition while simultaneously observing the happening of it not being a valid topic for discussion. And nonetheless proceed to discuss it. Well, if people are going to tell only half the story, that 'there is no volition'.. i'm going to tell the other half of the story, that 'there is volition'.. neither are valid, but when one perspective is invoked the other mutually arises.. there's no useful result in believing in or arguing either perspective, but.. 'all that's needed for belief to prosper and distort is for it to go unchallenged'.. Seems to be fighting fire with fire. If neither is valid and there is no useful result in arguing either perspective why not just stick with that? No need to substitute one belief that is invalid with another belief that is invalid. In other words, why tell 'the other half of the story' if both halves don't make a whole anyway? No comprendo.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 8:11:58 GMT -5
Yes, that gets back to what I thought Quinn and I were talking about. And it also addresses Top's question. I don't see it mattering much. Like self, I don't have a 'sense' of volition. When called by name I respond. I sign my name to things. But there is no 'sense' to it. Choices appear, decisions are made, but I don't 'sense' volition. Like I said originally, the sparks fly when in conversation with others about the possible lack of existence of either. You have no sense of volition? Yea that's what I'm saying. I don't really know what is being referred to by the concept 'sense of volition.' Senses are best noticed when the contrast between there being a sense and there not being a sense is apparent. For example, closing eyes, a whole lot of the sense of seeing changes. The objects change. I can dampen a sense of hearing by plugging my ears. I don't notice taste until something with taste is tasted. What exactly are we talking about here? Aside from the physical senses I can allow a 'sense of change' in that all sensations/perceptions have a sense of change going on. One appearance after the other on and on. Experiencing. Just now a 'choice' of adding two breaks between paragraphs happened. Is the sense of volition like the other senses noticed when there is a lack of it? But right now I just came back from a long detour to finish out this concept. What exactly is this 'sense of volition?' I don't sense being out of control, so does that imply that I have a sense of volition. But I'm not even sure what being out of control would feel like. Once, going too fast downhill skiing, I could feel the loss of control just before a tumble and grinding face plant. There was no physical way to stop the grinding face plant, so maybe that was a case of having no sense of volition? There was a stillness in that experience though. I was watching it happen, as a manner of speaking. Viktor Frankl talks about always having the freedom to choose your attitude. Why is it that he unlike his fellow inmate's had that ability to choose an attitude (as he tells it) while the others (for the most part) did not (so it seems)? My guess is that his conditioning and genetic makeup (nature+nurture) combined to provide him with the emotional and psychological fortitude to survive without too much PTSD. That fortitude was then inscribed as preserving the ability to choose one's attitude (apologies for simplifying his work.)
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