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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2014 20:33:26 GMT -5
As for a farmer quietly plowing his fields, I sincerely doubt that s/he is closer to the kind of realizations we typically point to here. Most farmers have a set of beliefs, and have no interest in anything beyond those beliefs, much less becoming free of them. It all depends upon how deeply someone wants to understand what's going on. The sage who comes full circle to "quietly plowing his fields" free from the dominance of mind has a completely different understanding than the ordinary farmer, and the ordinary farmer is highly unlikely to discover what the sage has discovered. Yes, if everyone on this forum could "put it all down" and be at peace with "what is" as it is, there would be no need to point to "what is" or describe the pcychological advantages of accepting "what is" as it is. The problem with that statement is that it isn't coming from a place of knowing what we truly are. A farmer, in fact all 7 billion of us, even with no interest in spiritual matters knows on some level what we truly are. There isn't a moment when we are not what we truly are. The only time when we apparently aren't what we truly are is when we take the form of some limiting thought, feeling, sensation or perception. I can guarantee you that if the farmer was plowing his field with a quiet mind he would be experiencing his true nature. I don't think ZD has any farmer issues.
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2014 20:43:38 GMT -5
As for a farmer quietly plowing his fields, I sincerely doubt that s/he is closer to the kind of realizations we typically point to here. Most farmers have a set of beliefs, and have no interest in anything beyond those beliefs, much less becoming free of them. It all depends upon how deeply someone wants to understand what's going on. The sage who comes full circle to "quietly plowing his fields" free from the dominance of mind has a completely different understanding than the ordinary farmer, and the ordinary farmer is highly unlikely to discover what the sage has discovered. Yes, if everyone on this forum could "put it all down" and be at peace with "what is" as it is, there would be no need to point to "what is" or describe the pcychological advantages of accepting "what is" as it is. As I've said more times than I count .. I'm not a d@mn farmer! And sorry Tzu, I mean ZD, I'm not exactly sure what beliefs you're talking about here, but I DO have interest in what lies behind them, regardless. And "highly unlikely"? well, geez, you are a mean spirited, zen stick wielder, then. I'm cool with "what is" .. ;-) No, you're a flea ridden, Napolean wanna-be pauper.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 20:50:30 GMT -5
The problem with that statement is that it isn't coming from a place of knowing what we truly are. A farmer, in fact all 7 billion of us, even with no interest in spiritual matters knows on some level what we truly are. There isn't a moment when we are not what we truly are. The only time when we apparently aren't what we truly are is when we take the form of some limiting thought, feeling, sensation or perception. I can guarantee you that if the farmer was plowing his field with a quiet mind he would be experiencing his true nature. I don't think ZD has any farmer issues. I don't know but I think he might have had a bad experience with one in his youth.
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2014 21:14:54 GMT -5
Yes, he would obviously be experiencing his true nature either way--whether his mind was quiet or not--, but mind would not have been informed concerning what's going on. If the realization that what he IS is much more than a separate entity has not occurred, along with some insights into how mind functions to obscure "what is," he is, like most people, probably going to be jerked around by a wide range of unconscious habitual unexamined thoughts that generate anxiety, anger, hatred, depression, resistance, second-guessing, etc. Freedom from the compulsion of incessant thought is unlikely to occur without some insight into what we might call "the big picture." A quiet mind or thoughtless mind is not the same as a thinking mind or a thoughtful mind. When there are no thoughts we recede back into what we truly are. Which is open, unlimited, eternal, presence. We then flow back out and take the shape of the mind. It is only then that the mind can be informed of something. How can the mind be informed about what we truly are when it was never there to witness it? We know what we are, we don't need an informed mind to know that. I didn't hear him say mind gets informed about what we truly are. It's really about getting rid of the illusions about what we aren't.
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2014 21:21:43 GMT -5
Me, too. If I'm recalling correctly, it was Maharshi who used to say- It is false to speak of realization. What is there to realize? The real is as it is always. realizations are illusions falling away. why would you want to hang onto illusion? Eggzackly, now get back on the bus.
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2014 21:31:56 GMT -5
What's that got to do with anything? shuddup and get on the bus so I can whip a snowball at ya'
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2014 21:37:09 GMT -5
realizations are illusions falling away. why would you want to hang onto illusion? You can't be trying to impune something other than yourself with this commentary. But I'll play witcha.. Have you gotten rid of your ignorance which makes you think that you are other than Bliss?
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2014 21:43:10 GMT -5
The problem with that statement is that it isn't coming from a place of knowing what we truly are. A farmer, in fact all 7 billion of us, even with no interest in spiritual matters knows on some level what we truly are. There isn't a moment when we are not what we truly are. The only time when we apparently aren't what we truly are is when we take the form of some limiting thought, feeling, sensation or perception. I can guarantee you that if the farmer was plowing his field with a quiet mind he would be experiencing his true nature. I have an uncle that passed away not too long ago...he was about as 'spiritual' a man as I ever knew, and yet, he didn't have a spiritual bone in his body lol He was a good ole country boy through and through, who happened to be a great zen master, without ever studying anything about zen that I am aware of...but he absolutely embodied the directness of approach to life that one seems to only really develop from hours and years of being with a silent mind. He was a hunter, loved it, but did not do it for sport, he did not make a lot of money, and it put food on the table through the winter. Thing is though, he really did it because it got him out in the woods sitting quietly for hours and hours every week all year long, even when he wasn't hunting. He would go to the woods everyday before and after work no matter the weather, and just sit perfectly still for hours...his face a perfect mask of alert Zazen.... Birds and squirrels and chipmonks would land on him and climb on him...no joke, I saw it myself over and over. Once, when I was about 6 years old, we went fishing at this little lake in the woods, and I was complaining about not catching anything and saying 'these worms must be the wrong bate'....he chuckled, came over, pulled a thick piece of grass loose, spit on it, put it on my hook, and told me to use that but sit quietly....it confused me, confounded me in a way that I just sat silently, alertly, watching....a couple minutes later I caught a fish with spit and grass! Throughout my childhood he would take me out with him, and teach me woodlore, but mostly, we'd just sit, perfectly still for hours, just kinda being a part of nature...if I talked or moved around too much, he would remind me to sit still with the directness of a Zen Master teaching an acolyte, and he'd say stuff like...'your mind is too busy, just sit and be quiet'....and as far as I know, he thought of meditation as something 'those hippies do' lol And he had this kind of non-judgemental, non-intellectual, VERY direct approach to everything in life...when something needed done, he just did it, efficiently, effectively, and without emotion or complaint, and when something did not need done, he sat quietly. He was never a particularly social man, he would state clearly that he felt like animals were way more honest than men, and preferred their company over people...but when he passed, hundreds of people showed up for his funeral from his small rural community. Really neat guy...but a total redneck, without a 'spiritual' bone in his body But at least he wasn't a farmer, right?
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2014 21:56:53 GMT -5
.......Scientists call this the "binding problem" because nobody knows how all this disparate information is combined on the fly to re-create a holistic brain representation. The ultimate form of binding is gestalt, wherein the brain binds what it physically detects with information from memory, intuition, and imagination". (pg 53) Scientists will always run into a problem until they figure out that consciousness is primary. I agree, though when they do, most of them will have to find another job.
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2014 22:01:52 GMT -5
Scientists will always run into a problem until they figure out that consciousness is primary. I was watching The Big History Project on TV the other day. They were talking about salt. They were making all kinds of connections between the rise of human society through the importance of salt. Including that all addictions have originated from the addiction to salt. One person even stated that salt is the reason we have consciousness. Was the program sponsored by the Morton salt company?
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Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2014 22:06:44 GMT -5
I don't think ZD has any farmer issues. I don't know but I think he might have had a bad experience with one in his youth. He should have stayed away from the farmer's daughter, but you know how it is.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 22:19:30 GMT -5
A quiet mind or thoughtless mind is not the same as a thinking mind or a thoughtful mind. When there are no thoughts we recede back into what we truly are. Which is open, unlimited, eternal, presence. We then flow back out and take the shape of the mind. It is only then that the mind can be informed of something. How can the mind be informed about what we truly are when it was never there to witness it? We know what we are, we don't need an informed mind to know that. I didn't hear him say mind gets informed about what we truly are. It's really about getting rid of the illusions about what we aren't. I didn't hear him say that either. Illusions only reside in the mind. So when there is no mind there is no problem. Really there is only one illusion that needs getting rid of. Get rid of that one and all the rest will fall.
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Post by laughter on Apr 18, 2014 1:21:31 GMT -5
Are you arguing that some significant level of mental understanding is necessary? A person has to learn a whole bunch of ideas and carving of reality in order to see clearly and stay seeing clearly. In some sense they need to become an expert in human nature? So... Education is a pre-requisite, whether formal or informal, is whatchyer sayin? I'm saying that realizations INFORM mind about what is NOT true. What Zen calls "passing through the gateless gate" is realizing that the universe is NOT what it is usually thought to be--it is NOT a dead empty place composed of separate things and events (it's actually alive, Igor; it's alive!). All boundaries are imaginary. Self-realization is realizing that who/what we THINK we are is NOT what we are. These and many other kinds of realizations free us from the dominance of mind, and simultaneously INFORM mind concerning what's going on.
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Post by enigma on Apr 18, 2014 3:10:26 GMT -5
I didn't hear him say mind gets informed about what we truly are. It's really about getting rid of the illusions about what we aren't. I didn't hear him say that either. Illusions only reside in the mind. So when there is no mind there is no problem. Really there is only one illusion that needs getting rid of. Get rid of that one and all the rest will fall. Right. You can't end mind permanently. Illusions have to be seen through. That's what it means to inform mind.
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Post by laughter on Apr 18, 2014 7:12:56 GMT -5
You can't be trying to impune something other than yourself with this commentary. But I'll play witcha.. Have you gotten rid of your ignorance which makes you think that you are other than Bliss? The bliss bunny is ever in motion and yet ... never moves from his spot on the couch and is thereby still ... this is so that the parafox may eat!
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