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Post by silver on Sept 6, 2013 16:41:57 GMT -5
Ideas. Now stop trolling and either get back on topic or leave. How's it trollin' ?? Sorry man ... short-circuting a conversation ain't the same as derailing it, and the only way that I could possibly have attacked you is if you're identified with the ideas. As for psychoanalysis, ain't got no experience nor acquaintance with it ... yer crazy, belief-swappin' chicken-dude just seems all funny to me! ... well, in a korny sorta' way that is ... Laughter - you gotta barnyard full o' fertilizer there.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Sept 6, 2013 17:03:01 GMT -5
Ideas. Now stop trolling and either get back on topic or leave. How's it trollin' ?? Sorry man ... short-circuting a conversation ain't the same as derailing it, and the only way that I could possibly have attacked you is if you're identified with the ideas. As for psychoanalysis, ain't got no experience nor acquaintance with it ... yer crazy, belief-swappin' chicken-dude just seems all funny to me! ... well, in a korny sorta' way that is ... Seriously dude, just fúck off. We're not buddies and I don't want to hear your stupid jokes and look at your funny pictures. Either stay 100% on topic or get lost.
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Post by laughter on Sept 6, 2013 17:07:52 GMT -5
How's it trollin' ?? Sorry man ... short-circuting a conversation ain't the same as derailing it, and the only way that I could possibly have attacked you is if you're identified with the ideas. As for psychoanalysis, ain't got no experience nor acquaintance with it ... yer crazy, belief-swappin' chicken-dude just seems all funny to me! ... well, in a korny sorta' way that is ... Seriously dude, just fúck off. We're not buddies and I don't want to hear your stupid jokes and look at your funny pictures. Either stay 100% on topic or get lost. Well, if you want to explain exactly how it wasn't on topic, sure. Otherwise yer stuck with me for as long as you want to complain about it or until you start to get boring ... and you're never boring when you're apparently incensed.
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Post by nowhereman on Sept 6, 2013 17:09:13 GMT -5
How's it trollin' ?? Sorry man ... short-circuting a conversation ain't the same as derailing it, and the only way that I could possibly have attacked you is if you're identified with the ideas. As for psychoanalysis, ain't got no experience nor acquaintance with it ... yer crazy, belief-swappin' chicken-dude just seems all funny to me! ... well, in a korny sorta' way that is ... Seriously dude, just fúck off. We're not buddies and I don't want to hear your stupid jokes and look at your funny pictures. Either stay 100% on topic or get lost. food fight! food fight! Com'on man u 2 serious me thinks..you going to getcha heart attack..now breathe deeply and forget to exhale.. Nowhereman
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Sept 6, 2013 17:18:41 GMT -5
Seriously dude, just fúck off. We're not buddies and I don't want to hear your stupid jokes and look at your funny pictures. Either stay 100% on topic or get lost. food fight! food fight! Com'on man u 2 serious me thinks..you going to getcha heart attack..now breathe deeply and forget to exhale.. Nowhereman All this is simply so unnecessary. The first time I simply asked him to behave in my thread. He completely ignored my request and continued with the provocation. Then I told him to please leave or stay on topic in a way where there is absolutely no room for misunderstanding. Why is it so difficult to respect my request? I don't understand. This has nothing to do with anything other than showing a minimum of politeness. I really don't think it's too much to ask. This goes for you too btw. Please don't make such posts in my thread.
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Post by nowhereman on Sept 6, 2013 17:23:51 GMT -5
food fight! food fight! Com'on man u 2 serious me thinks..you going to getcha heart attack..now breathe deeply and forget to exhale.. Nowhereman All this is simply so unnecessary. The first time I simply asked him to behave in my thread. He completely ignored my request and continued with the provocation. Then I told him to please leave or stay on topic in a way where there is absolutely no room for misunderstanding. Why is it so difficult to respect my request? I don't understand. This has nothing to do with anything other than showing a minimum of politeness. I really don't think it's too much to ask. This goes for you too btw. Please don't make such posts in my thread. I do understand but why get yourself so upset. The readers who don't wish to hear him will just skip over him and stay on base with you. As you stay focus so will the readers. However I will give you my big Zen stick to slap him if you so desire.. Nowhereman
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Sept 6, 2013 17:25:16 GMT -5
I don't really have any way of knowing. It's all hypothetical to me, but I can guess that the patient was pretending to see the truth of the matter from within his pretense of being a corn kernel. The two stories came into conflict when the thought of the chicken arose. So you refuse to play along with the story. That's okay. Then please pick another instance where someone is "pretending" (in the sense we're discussing here) and the stops the "pretense". If there is indeed no solution then how does the deception ever stop? But of course there is a solution. Some self-deceptions cease to function, so they are solved. How did it happen? To be self-deceived is an obvious violation of logic, this means that the person in question is clearly behaving irrationally, and then you advice the person to use logic, see through a problem and make the logical choice to stop the self-deception. To claim that someone is self-deceived is to claim that the person in question is crazy, why do you expect this person to be able to make rational choices? That's the first point. The other point is that obviously we would have a long time ago stopped the self-deception because then we would have a much better life. Why don't we?
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Post by silver on Sept 6, 2013 17:25:48 GMT -5
food fight! food fight! Com'on man u 2 serious me thinks..you going to getcha heart attack..now breathe deeply and forget to exhale.. Nowhereman All this is simply so unnecessary. The first time I simply asked him to behave in my thread. He completely ignored my request and continued with the provocation. Then I told him to please leave or stay on topic in a way where there is absolutely no room for misunderstanding. Why is it so difficult to respect my request? I don't understand. This has nothing to do with anything other than showing a minimum of politeness. I really don't think it's too much to ask. This goes for you too btw. Please don't make such posts in my thread. I feel for ya. Politeness is not something they rez with.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Sept 6, 2013 17:26:42 GMT -5
Mind is always in control of these functions, it just doesn't micro-manage the minute details. Seems to be that this effectively amounts to a multi-level mind.
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Post by laughter on Sept 6, 2013 17:27:29 GMT -5
Nope. The liar paradox is operative in E's narrative, that's why I'm opposing it. Delusion, illusion, some sort of self-deception is obviously happening, but in such a way that it avoids the liar paradox, which is only possible if indeed the unconscious (or something equivalent to it) is operative. The OP is about how self-deception happens without resulting in the liar paradox, as such it's the starting point and the only way to go. There's no paradox, but there is an interesting mental function involved. It's the same function that allows us to ride a bike, talk or walk without having to attend to every muscular movement, which would be tedious and cumbersome. In these applications, the actions don't happen without mind's full awareness and consent. One doesn't just unknowingly get up from the couch and spontaneously walk across the room. Mind is always in control of these functions, it just doesn't micro-manage the minute details. When this function is employed as a pretense to not know what one clearly does know, we call it self deception. As with walking, the mind has not lost control of the process, it simply selectively attends to what it wants to be so, and ignores the rest. In order for mind to know what to ignore, it has to know all about it to begin with. What results is the appearance of a multi-leveled mind in which there are little unconscious cubby holes where information can be hidden from view, but this is just a story to support the self deception process. Mind remains whole, and the level distinctions are really distinctions of process. One can attend to sensory input, or feelings, or recall memory, or imagine, or pretend to not know what it actually knows. To the thinker the paradox arises in evaluating what you mean by what is known, which isn't a piece of information but the lack thereof. No pretension and the silence remains undisturbed.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Sept 6, 2013 17:29:47 GMT -5
All this is simply so unnecessary. The first time I simply asked him to behave in my thread. He completely ignored my request and continued with the provocation. Then I told him to please leave or stay on topic in a way where there is absolutely no room for misunderstanding. Why is it so difficult to respect my request? I don't understand. This has nothing to do with anything other than showing a minimum of politeness. I really don't think it's too much to ask. This goes for you too btw. Please don't make such posts in my thread. I do understand but why get yourself so upset. The readers who don't wish to hear him will just skip over him and stay on base with you. As you stay focus so will the readers. However I will give you my big Zen stick to slap him if you so desire.. Nowhereman I'm not interested in this conversation. Feel free to continue it elsewhere. Please don't post in this thread again unless it's on topic. Thank you.
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Post by laughter on Sept 6, 2013 20:50:08 GMT -5
I don't really have any way of knowing. It's all hypothetical to me, but I can guess that the patient was pretending to see the truth of the matter from within his pretense of being a corn kernel. The two stories came into conflict when the thought of the chicken arose. So you refuse to play along with the story. That's okay. Then please pick another instance where someone is "pretending" (in the sense we're discussing here) and the stops the "pretense". If there is indeed no solution then how does the deception ever stop? But of course there is a solution. Some self-deceptions cease to function, so they are solved. How did it happen? To be self-deceived is an obvious violation of logic, this means that the person in question is clearly behaving irrationally, and then you advice the person to use logic, see through a problem and make the logical choice to stop the self-deception. To claim that someone is self-deceived is to claim that the person in question is crazy, why do you expect this person to be able to make rational choices?That's the first point. The other point is that obviously we would have a long time ago stopped the self-deception because then we would have a much better life. Why don't we? This choice that's being referred to doesn't seem rational to the rational thinker.
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Post by enigma on Sept 6, 2013 20:59:47 GMT -5
I don't really have any way of knowing. It's all hypothetical to me, but I can guess that the patient was pretending to see the truth of the matter from within his pretense of being a corn kernel. The two stories came into conflict when the thought of the chicken arose. So you refuse to play along with the story. That's okay. Then please pick another instance where someone is "pretending" (in the sense we're discussing here) and the stops the "pretense". If there is indeed no solution then how does the deception ever stop? But of course there is a solution. Some self-deceptions cease to function, so they are solved. How did it happen? As a result of willingness, honesty, integrity, sincerity. I never advised the use of logic, nor do I recall asking anyone to make a choice. Yes, insanity. I don't. The name of the game is self deception. Any weighing of the benefits of ending the self deception would involve admitting it.
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Post by enigma on Sept 6, 2013 21:10:24 GMT -5
Mind is always in control of these functions, it just doesn't micro-manage the minute details. Seems to be that this effectively amounts to a multi-level mind. I wanted to make the distinction between a multi-level mind and a mind consisting of integrated processes, because I wanted to make the point that there is no place where information can be hidden away. Repression, suppression, unconscious, subconscious, super-conscious, Id, ego, self deception, denial, projection all refer to processes in the integrated mind and not mind levels.
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Post by enigma on Sept 6, 2013 21:13:01 GMT -5
There's no paradox, but there is an interesting mental function involved. It's the same function that allows us to ride a bike, talk or walk without having to attend to every muscular movement, which would be tedious and cumbersome. In these applications, the actions don't happen without mind's full awareness and consent. One doesn't just unknowingly get up from the couch and spontaneously walk across the room. Mind is always in control of these functions, it just doesn't micro-manage the minute details. When this function is employed as a pretense to not know what one clearly does know, we call it self deception. As with walking, the mind has not lost control of the process, it simply selectively attends to what it wants to be so, and ignores the rest. In order for mind to know what to ignore, it has to know all about it to begin with. What results is the appearance of a multi-leveled mind in which there are little unconscious cubby holes where information can be hidden from view, but this is just a story to support the self deception process. Mind remains whole, and the level distinctions are really distinctions of process. One can attend to sensory input, or feelings, or recall memory, or imagine, or pretend to not know what it actually knows. To the thinker the paradox arises in evaluating what you mean by what is known, which isn't a piece of information but the lack thereof. No pretension and the silence remains undisturbed. There is mental confusion, yes.
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