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Post by topology on Jul 5, 2013 6:45:48 GMT -5
So ATA to you was like developing a way to induce altered states in the same way a drug would? Only that it didn't work of course. An unusual experience would have been a sign for me that it's working. I don't know toward what goal, but at least that it's working. Absent this sign I can only conclude that it's not working on me and that I'm wasting my time. The kind and quantity of frustration you entered into doesn't count as an un-usual experience? It doesn't inspire question marks about what is getting frustrated and why?
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 5, 2013 7:03:13 GMT -5
An unusual experience would have been a sign for me that it's working. I don't know toward what goal, but at least that it's working. Absent this sign I can only conclude that it's not working on me and that I'm wasting my time. The kind and quantity of frustration you entered into doesn't count as an un-usual experience? It doesn't inspire question marks about what is getting frustrated and why? No, it's not unusual. Frustration is for me a sign that I'm doing something wrong. That's why when I'm frustrated I change my behaviour.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 5, 2013 7:55:05 GMT -5
The kind and quantity of frustration you entered into doesn't count as an un-usual experience? It doesn't inspire question marks about what is getting frustrated and why? No, it's not unusual. Frustration is for me a sign that I'm doing something wrong. That's why when I'm frustrated I change my behaviour. How so? Can you give an example of how you have changed a behavior as a result of experiencing frustration?
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 5, 2013 8:26:02 GMT -5
No, it's not unusual. Frustration is for me a sign that I'm doing something wrong. That's why when I'm frustrated I change my behaviour. How so? Can you give an example of how you have changed a behavior as a result of experiencing frustration? I stop the activity and do something else.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 5, 2013 8:40:34 GMT -5
How so? Can you give an example of how you have changed a behavior as a result of experiencing frustration? I stop the activity and do something else. That's great if it worked for you. But if it were that easy for everyone addiction wouldn't be the serious problem that it is. These need something else besides "just say no".
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Post by Reefs on Jul 5, 2013 8:51:14 GMT -5
An unusual experience would have been a sign for me that it's working. I don't know toward what goal, but at least that it's working. Absent this sign I can only conclude that it's not working on me and that I'm wasting my time. Right. Which could actually be the sign you are waiting for.
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Post by topology on Jul 5, 2013 10:55:29 GMT -5
The kind and quantity of frustration you entered into doesn't count as an un-usual experience? It doesn't inspire question marks about what is getting frustrated and why? No, it's not unusual. Frustration is for me a sign that I'm doing something wrong. That's why when I'm frustrated I change my behaviour. Frustration is an emotion that arises due to unmet expectations. If the expectation is not released, the frustration continues until the activity is ceased. It sounds like in order to relieve the frustration you are choosing to abandon the activity as opposed to releasing the expectation (idealism) My son will get frustrated when his training wheels come off. He will expect to ride his bike perfectly at first. He may fall down over and over again. Getting frustrated with it is inevitable, but if he succumbs to the frustration it will exacerbate the process and create a feedback loop in generating frustration. If he accepts the falling down and failure as part of the learning process then he will be calmer and more able to tune into the sense of balance, timing and exertion of pedaling. If he abandons the activity, he will never learn to ride the bike without training wheels. I'm an idealist myself. When I go to learn something new I experience frustration and even anxiety for not being perfect or learning fast enough. If I want to actually accomplish something, I have to let go of my expectations and engage a mode of playful exploration.
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 11:20:40 GMT -5
What is it you didn't understand? The question is misconceived. Hi enigma, How do you (whatever that you is) see the function of your mind? What part does it play in your functioning? amit I can't make sense out of the question. Sorry.
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Post by silence on Jul 5, 2013 14:06:29 GMT -5
So ATA to you was like developing a way to induce altered states in the same way a drug would? Only that it didn't work of course. An unusual experience would have been a sign for me that it's working. I don't know toward what goal, but at least that it's working. Absent this sign I can only conclude that it's not working on me and that I'm wasting my time. Okay, thanks for clarifying and I understand. No need to waste to your time.
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Post by silence on Jul 5, 2013 14:36:47 GMT -5
Greetings.. My screen name is Silence and I have nothing to offer anyone but the suggestion to recede into that silence that just about everyone runs from. What I understand is that people are looking in the wrong place. So long as it appears as though you can escape from mind, the split within will never cease. You will meditate into your "still mind" again and again to find relief and special states. This super slow state of mind is what you call still and it's one of many imitations mind uses to keep your attenton fully locked in manipulating your experience. My understanding of 'still mind' is when the active thinking processes are 'still', and they cease to influence the observations and sensations that inform us of our experiences interacting with Life and with what 'is'.. i'm not quite sure what your understanding of 'still mind' is.. Be well.. Thinking never stops influencing your experience. Even your famous wasp sting example is still colored by thought as the recognition of what's happening to you is arising instantaneously to have the basic and simple recognition that you just got stung by a wasp. While the nervous system can operate independently of thought, there is no experience until thought literally pieces it together. I don't have an issue talking about a "still mind" as the state in which thinking slows down considerably and overt thinking ceases. This relaxed state provides a much easier opportunity to actually glimpse what's below the tip of the iceberg as extremely subtle foundational beliefs are not being overshadowed by chaotic overt thought. This is also precisely when most become consumed with the pleasureable experience of both physical and mental relaxation. The point though is important. The stilness and silence that actually satisfies in the long term is not the result of a still mind experience. It is conditionless and goes nowhere when mind is active. This is what I mean by looking in the wrong place and it's also what it means to say that you need not do anything. Attention will be continually sucked into those foundational beliefs and out of the silence I'm talking about until they are seen for what they are. This is also why your suggestion to just about everyone to simply "let go" is not something that happens through any measure of will. It is the result of clarity. The result of seeing through the beliefs themselves. You won't see through anything until you actually want to and so the majority of spirituality just boils down to simply having the plain old ordinary willingness to be honest with yourself.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 17:25:07 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. My understanding of 'still mind' is when the active thinking processes are 'still', and they cease to influence the observations and sensations that inform us of our experiences interacting with Life and with what 'is'.. i'm not quite sure what your understanding of 'still mind' is.. Be well.. Thinking never stops influencing your experience. Even your famous wasp sting example is still colored by thought as the recognition of what's happening to you is arising instantaneously to have the basic and simple recognition that you just got stung by a wasp. While the nervous system can operate independently of thought, there is no experience until thought literally pieces it together. I don't have an issue talking about a "still mind" as the state in which thinking slows down considerably and overt thinking ceases. This relaxed state provides a much easier opportunity to actually glimpse what's below the tip of the iceberg as extremely subtle foundational beliefs are not being overshadowed by chaotic overt thought. This is also precisely when most become consumed with the pleasureable experience of both physical and mental relaxation. The point though is important. The stilness and silence that actually satisfies in the long term is not the result of a still mind experience. It is conditionless and goes nowhere when mind is active. This is what I mean by looking in the wrong place and it's also what it means to say that you need not do anything. Attention will be continually sucked into those foundational beliefs and out of the silence I'm talking about until they are seen for what they are. This is also why your suggestion to just about everyone to simply "let go" is not something that happens through any measure of will. It is the result of clarity. The result of seeing through the beliefs themselves. You won't see through anything until you actually want to and so the majority of spirituality just boils down to simply having the plain old ordinary willingness to be honest with yourself. Stop trying so hard.. yes, there IS a still mind experience where there is only pure observation.. and, 'observation' references any vehicle that informs the experiencer.. Be well..
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Post by silence on Jul 5, 2013 20:48:23 GMT -5
Greetings.. Thinking never stops influencing your experience. Even your famous wasp sting example is still colored by thought as the recognition of what's happening to you is arising instantaneously to have the basic and simple recognition that you just got stung by a wasp. While the nervous system can operate independently of thought, there is no experience until thought literally pieces it together. I don't have an issue talking about a "still mind" as the state in which thinking slows down considerably and overt thinking ceases. This relaxed state provides a much easier opportunity to actually glimpse what's below the tip of the iceberg as extremely subtle foundational beliefs are not being overshadowed by chaotic overt thought. This is also precisely when most become consumed with the pleasureable experience of both physical and mental relaxation. The point though is important. The stilness and silence that actually satisfies in the long term is not the result of a still mind experience. It is conditionless and goes nowhere when mind is active. This is what I mean by looking in the wrong place and it's also what it means to say that you need not do anything. Attention will be continually sucked into those foundational beliefs and out of the silence I'm talking about until they are seen for what they are. This is also why your suggestion to just about everyone to simply "let go" is not something that happens through any measure of will. It is the result of clarity. The result of seeing through the beliefs themselves. You won't see through anything until you actually want to and so the majority of spirituality just boils down to simply having the plain old ordinary willingness to be honest with yourself. Stop trying so hard.. yes, there IS a still mind experience where there is only pure observation.. and, 'observation' references any vehicle that informs the experiencer.. Be well.. The moment you look out and distinguish anything from anything else, thought is involved (no pure observation). This is the basis for talking about separation being an illusion (entirely formed in thought).
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 22:02:12 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Stop trying so hard.. yes, there IS a still mind experience where there is only pure observation.. and, 'observation' references any vehicle that informs the experiencer.. Be well.. The moment you look out and distinguish anything from anything else, thought is involved (no pure observation). This is the basis for talking about separation being an illusion (entirely formed in thought). That is not my experience, and please be so kind as to not assume you can know my experience.. it may be accurate that 'you' cannot simply 'look and see what is present', but i and many others can.. i suspect that you do it quite often, but because you aren't 'thinking' about it, you aren't aware of the information you acquired.. Be well..
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Post by amit on Jul 6, 2013 0:43:20 GMT -5
Hi enigma, How do you (whatever that you is) see the function of your mind? What part does it play in your functioning? amit I can't make sense out of the question. Sorry. Hi enigma, Ok try this. When you use the word "mind" what do you mean? amit
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 6, 2013 6:08:34 GMT -5
Greetings..
What follows is a rambling description of my understanding of ‘Mind’, and I am giving fair warning that it is difficult to follow. My hope is that I might inspire exploration of the Mind through shared understandings. Somewhere in this mess of words I have tried to explain a process that has brilliantly revealed itself to ‘me’ in a way that removed all conflicts and all unresolved questions in my relationships with Life. If there is fault in the message, it is in my skill at presenting it, not in the process being presented.
First, I understand that most of what I refer to as ‘what I know’, is what I ‘believe’, it’s what I hold as ‘true’ unless or until more conclusive information reveals those beliefs to be inaccurate or inadequate, this I refer to as ‘understanding’. I understand that this mind-body organism experiences information from sensory input, and I do not limit sensory input to the five physical senses, I hold insight, intuition, and energetic awareness as equal in the process of experiencing information, and by interactive communion, as ‘that’ which the information references. Among my conclusions, what stands out as undeniable, notwithstanding deep ideological inclinations to contradict it, is this: That Mind is the naturally existent and inherent medium upon and through which all of the experience of existence is made known.. further, that any form of communication requires the natural functions of Mind to complete the conveyance of words, ideas, concepts, and experiences from one being to another, or.. between multiple beings and the cooperative expansion of their collective Mind, even if the collective reference relates to even two or three beings cooperating in a way that achieves more than could be achieved individually.
The word, ‘mind’, is sometimes demonized for its less desirable qualities, and praised for its more desirable qualities, and there is a tendency among ‘Spiritual’ groups to discount ‘Mind’s necessary role in the fundamental process of existing and ‘Being’. What I have come to believe (see previous paragraph), is that mind is similar to consciousness and awareness, in that it arises mutually and in proportion with the organization of biological energetic structures. Mind is more closely related to consciousness, in that consciousness is the fabric of mind’s existence, while awareness is the vehicle of mind’s information acquisition. I have investigated much of the formal reasonings about mind, and I have concluded, rightly or wrongly, that the contending and competing perspectives about mind are too convoluted and self-serving to be reconciled by my own mind, so.. I have studied mind from an observer’s perspective, listening to people’s use of the word and their understandings of Mind, and.. I also listen to my own mind’s understandings of its own processes. I also gave myself permission to fail, to make mistakes, to misunderstand, and to continue intending to understand. And, what has served my intentions well, is that I scrutinize my own beliefs and understandings, I sincerely try to find fault with the beliefs and understandings I accept as consistent with ‘what is so’.. so that what is left within my understandings has been scrutinized far more intensely than acceptable behavior allows me to scrutinize others..
I have am comfortable that my understanding of mind, what I believe about mind, is that mind is a medium common to all perception, awareness, experiences, imagination, reasoning, recollecting, and cognitive processes, and it is upon and through such medium that ‘that which is’ is made known in relation to itself (self-awareness). Mind is infinite and isolated at the same time, allowing for that which ‘is’ to utilize mind according to its intention, as an independently functioning ‘part’ of the infinite, and/or as ‘all’ of the eternal infinite, for exploring its own existence. Mind allows for isolated ‘parts’ of its wholeness to experience privacy as different ‘unique patterns’ of the same essence, like the unique snowflakes that are all the same essence of water. In this way, ‘that which is’ senses and perceives its existence in the same medium, mind, as the ‘isolated parts’ of itself experiences their freely interactive experiences with other ‘parts’, and with the part’s inherent awareness of itself as ‘that which is’, too.. a functional equality, as necessary to be true to your own experience of ‘You’..
What is brilliant about this relationship between the collective Whole (‘that which is’) and the unique individually functioning ‘parts’ of itself (which ‘is’, too), is the common medium of mind, where part and whole interact and ‘feel’ their inherent relationship through experiencing each other’s perceptions of existing. This ‘Mind’, as the medium within which all things are made known, is a curiously malleable and supple substance, taking the shape of its closest and most dominant influence, which is usually the intersection of perception and belief. Semi permanent shapes within the mind, usually the individualized ‘part’, are sometimes referred to and experienced as beliefs, rigid structures that are a bit like rocks in a stream, as they distort the flow of understanding into identifiable textures, ripples, and rapids. Equally acknowledged, are the beliefs that create harmony, like the beliefs that alert us to danger, or that remind us of necessary activities for our well-being, or that counsel us of our relationship with the continuum of Life.
What is impressive, from my perspective, is the omnipresence of ‘mind’. Mind acts as the interface between all individualized aspects of Wholeness and between those individualized aspects and their collective Wholeness, regardless of whether the reference to ‘collective’ applies to the perspective of the Whole perceiving the many, or the many perceiving the Whole. The same function of mind figures out how to communicate between different languages of people’s understandings, as it figures out the language of emotion or the language of insight and intuition which are communications between “part and whole”, exploring their common evolution through the common medium of mind.
Everything experienced and everything known, is made known through the mind’s capacity for organizing information, understanding consequences, and choosing from potential results. What is not often discussed are the mechanisms for acquiring information, and the functionality of the mechanisms. Mind, as the common medium of understanding, depends on information that it arranges as directed by the parameters established by ‘You’, either as the individuality, or as the collective (‘You’ are both, choosing your current perspective by where you apply your awareness). As the collective, your parameters are so broadly distributed as to include everything, and as the individuality your parameters vary widely depending on the individual’s understanding and awareness. In either case, the parameters are evident as ‘beliefs’, structures shaped by mind’s self-awareness and self-imagery, and arranged to affect how information is organized, how it is understood, and how potential results are chosen to perpetuate the belief structure.
So, i have presented the mind.. as the interface through which all of Life and existence is made known to and between each of us individually, and.. as each of us, individually, experience Life from our individual perspectives, our individualized function of Mind translates our experiences into the energy of ‘feeling’, the common language of Life, individually or collectively, so that.. in the instant of ‘Now happening’, the collective Mind ‘feels’ every detail of Life in every perspective of the individual perceivers, as an Energetic Symphony of frequencies and vibrations.. and, at that same instant every individual has total access to and with the totality of the ‘Mind of the Cosmos’, the collective consciousness.. this access is dependent on the ability to ‘feel’ the stillness of the individual Mind, in which there is the clarity to experience ‘what is’.. the individual Mind’s active attention to its local environment is like the activity on the surface of the Cosmic pool of awareness, it distorts the perception of what is below the surface, it distorts the perspectives of the depths of understanding..
This Mind is like a movie screen where on one side the energy of physical existence is projected onto it, and.. on the other side, the energy of an intangible collective Cosmic Wholeness is projected onto it.. individually and collectively, we ‘know’ Life and existence through the shared medium of this common Mind.. we will focus on small sections of the ‘movie screen’ on the side of the screen we favor, and our beliefs will wrinkle and distort the screen’s smooth potential for clarity, or.. we will allow calm stillness to provide the smooth translucent Mind’s awareness to realize.. that the two sides of the Mind’s ‘movie screen’ integrate both sides into a seamless Whole, two sides of the same awareness.. And, we/us/Life are that Mind’s exploration of itself as it translates the unknown into the known ..
I warned you, and.. if you read all of this with an open mind, you have my respect, even if you disagree..
Be well..
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