|
Post by laughter on Jul 4, 2013 16:44:17 GMT -5
![](http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/yahoo/i-dont-know-yahoo-emoticon.gif) FWIW, wrote this to a friend a few months back: One interesting pointer that some state is that the subject cannot observe itself -- it's a simple argument: what you are can't be anything that appears to you. This gets one to the witness but then there is still the witness and what is witnessed. There is of course no valid description of the recognition of the illusion of the subject/object split because we have to use language and the underlying basis of language (or any means of communication, or any embodiment of information, for that matter) is this split. Likewise, the absence of separation is always the case, but projecting this state of affairs into terms the mind can get a grip on might describe the realization of that as an inflection point where neti-neti ends and "I am none of this" carries the same meaning as "I am all of this". "both, neither and beyond both" Your stipulation is based on a false premise.. Self-awareness is you appearing to you.. Be well.. (** facepalm **)
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Jul 4, 2013 16:45:25 GMT -5
Greetings.. Is this a conclusion or an experience or both or something other? In the question you ask above, it seems like a conclusion. Might be right about that, I have no clue. But I can think of an alternative explanation for the phenomena which is not the same conclusion. For example, it might be that awareness is mythical. The fact of memory necessitates cognition of that memory. Another way of saying it: If a memory is like a little movie of some past event, there is no movie without light. No light no movie. This does not mean that the light is always on. Enigma gets around this question by saying it's a realization. To me that sounds like extra special knowledge is gained. But I have no realization to compare it to, so that's just how it sounds to me. It reminds me of when you ask how someone learned of God and they say the Bible. And you say okay what's the Bible and they say God's Word. And then you ask who says? and they say The Bible. "The word "awareness" is misleading. Awareness is not a divided state; there are not two states -- awareness and something else. There are not two things. It is not that you are aware of something. Awareness is simply the action of the brain. The idea that you can USE awareness to bring about some happier state of affairs, some sort of transformation, or God knows what, is, for me, absurd. Awareness cannot be used to bring about a change in yourself or the world around you." -UG It just makes sense.. i often refer to 'awareness' as the vehicle through which we are 'informed'.. Be well..
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Jul 4, 2013 16:46:38 GMT -5
Greetings.. Your stipulation is based on a false premise.. Self-awareness is you appearing to you.. Be well.. (** facepalm **) Yep, it's that simple when you finally 'get it'.. Be well..
|
|
|
Post by silence on Jul 4, 2013 16:47:39 GMT -5
Greetings.. The reason why you can't pin down a mind thing is that it's just a term referring to the movement of thought. There is no movementless movement of thought and while thought can cease (deep sleep), there's absolutely nothing to say about it. In other words, the still mind experience is phony. It's not phony, it's just more difficult for some folks, and.. rather than admit they don't want to make the effort to understand, some of them demonize it.. Be well.. My screen name is Silence and I have nothing to offer anyone but the suggestion to recede into that silence that just about everyone runs from. What I understand is that people are looking in the wrong place. So long as it appears as though you can escape from mind, the split within will never cease. You will meditate into your "still mind" again and again to find relief and special states. This super slow state of mind is what you call still and it's one of many imitations mind uses to keep your attenton fully locked in manipulating your experience.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jul 4, 2013 16:48:10 GMT -5
Greetings.. Yep, it's that simple when you finally 'get it'.. Be well.. If you think you "get it" ... throw it away.
|
|
|
Post by justlikeyou on Jul 4, 2013 16:51:29 GMT -5
Hi verbed. The problem, as I see it, is the tyranny of an out-of-control mind. Right. Someone who doesn't find themselves burdened by mind to begin with may venture into spirituality only to wonder what in the world all the fuss is about. Meanwhile, the overthinkers are busy basking in relief from oppressive thinking. Exactly!
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Jul 4, 2013 16:51:48 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Yep, it's that simple when you finally 'get it'.. Be well.. If you think you "get it" ... throw it away. Absolutely! Be well..
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Jul 4, 2013 16:55:57 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. It's not phony, it's just more difficult for some folks, and.. rather than admit they don't want to make the effort to understand, some of them demonize it.. Be well.. My screen name is Silence and I have nothing to offer anyone but the suggestion to recede into that silence that just about everyone runs from. What I understand is that people are looking in the wrong place. So long as it appears as though you can escape from mind, the split within will never cease. You will meditate into your "still mind" again and again to find relief and special states. This super slow state of mind is what you call still and it's one of many imitations mind uses to keep your attenton fully locked in manipulating your experience. My understanding of 'still mind' is when the active thinking processes are 'still', and they cease to influence the observations and sensations that inform us of our experiences interacting with Life and with what 'is'.. i'm not quite sure what your understanding of 'still mind' is.. Be well..
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jul 4, 2013 21:14:00 GMT -5
Tzu freaks me out at times with his clarity. Me too. Me three.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jul 4, 2013 21:15:21 GMT -5
Tzu make some valid points at times but I disagree with him when he asserts that stillness is simply another aspect of mind. As I see it, if the mind were the moon, inner stillness would be like the space which makes the existence of the moon possible. Consciousness is like that to me. The Inner Space in which everything, including mind, have existence, and without which couldn't exist at all. Mind by definition is never still. Right, mind is the movement of thought.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jul 4, 2013 21:21:26 GMT -5
Greetings.. I feel a sequel coming on. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) You're doing something that Andrew has made a career out of. It's a TMT tar baby and distinguishes clarity from conceptual grasping. 'It's all imagination' is a pointer which you ingest with the mind and conclude that 'It's all a pointer' must be imagination too, which of course means that the idea that it's all imagination is all imagination, must be imagination too, ad infinitum, resulting in ambiguous paradox and know nothing confusion in the certainty of uncertainty. At least Andrew is willing to admit that's the result and give it a big ole bear hug. Surely it must make you a bit dizzy to do that, but there must be a sense of intellectual satisfaction that you've spotted the self evident truth or sumthin or you wouldn't do it, and then feed back that mental slag like it was pure gold for others to respect and admire.Nope.. i just don't get to that level of conjecture.. you claim TMT, then plow right into it like starving man into his first new meal.. the "mental slag" you are identifying are the conceptual beliefs you keep posting, that's the simplicity of it.. you claim it's all imagination, the inconsistency is identified, then you contort and conjecture plausible denial while creating a negative illusion about the person that points-out the inconsistency, it's 'what you do'.. Be well.. The point is that's not what's happening at all. You're just imagining it.
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Jul 4, 2013 23:56:47 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Nope.. i just don't get to that level of conjecture.. you claim TMT, then plow right into it like starving man into his first new meal.. the "mental slag" you are identifying are the conceptual beliefs you keep posting, that's the simplicity of it.. you claim it's all imagination, the inconsistency is identified, then you contort and conjecture plausible denial while creating a negative illusion about the person that points-out the inconsistency, it's 'what you do'.. Be well.. The point is that's not what's happening at all. You're just imagining it. So easy for you to say, but you have no way to support what you say.. you claim that "it's all imagined", but you act as if it is not, you insist that 'oneness is truth', which fails as by your own account that it is imagined.. simply because you are trapped by your own imagination, it is not true that everyone shares your dilemma.. your's is a fate cured by clarity, seeing what 'is', without conjuring beliefs 'about' what is seen.. or, hearing stories that appeal to a sense of hopelessness, and finding no will to change your fate, accepting such stories as suitable excuses.. Just look and see what is.. it is superfluous to say it is 'imagined', or it is 'oneness', those are 'beliefs' about what is seen.. a self-referencing loop, the beliefs create the illusion that the beliefs are 'true', let go of anything but the seeing/experiencing itself.. until you get there, the beliefs own you.. Be well..
|
|
|
Post by earnest on Jul 5, 2013 0:22:41 GMT -5
Luck, grace ... whatever. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) Trick is to play the short odds Bambi. The rational, thinking, reasoning mind has a proven track record of being the worst bookmaker in the biz. ![](http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/yahoo/raised-eyebrows-yahoo-emoticon.gif) Clickity-clack man! Yawn, same old anti-intellectual attitude. Them enlightened folks sure do have a lot of thoughts to share despite allegedly having transcended mind. For me I don't know if it was anti-intellectual thing as such,. more likely a becoming more interested in what was happening rather than my thoughts about what was happening. And becoming really,.. REALLY bored with story-type thinking. I totally felt that I got lucky (graced) and I'm not claiming anything, or think that I've transcended anything, but something is different. Add to that the hilarity/bittersweet-ness of it being in front of my face the whole time...
|
|
|
Post by amit on Jul 5, 2013 0:30:23 GMT -5
Hi enigma, What is that "You" You are talking about? What is it you didn't understand? The question is misconceived. Hi enigma, How do you (whatever that you is) see the function of your mind? What part does it play in your functioning? amit
|
|
|
Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 5, 2013 5:52:53 GMT -5
So ATA to you was like developing a way to induce altered states in the same way a drug would? Only that it didn't work of course. An unusual experience would have been a sign for me that it's working. I don't know toward what goal, but at least that it's working. Absent this sign I can only conclude that it's not working on me and that I'm wasting my time.
|
|