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Post by enigma on Jun 26, 2013 0:59:04 GMT -5
It's a realization, and therefore a self evident no brainer. So there is a loss of knowledge, which is a realization. The realization 'informs the mind.' And what is expressed is: "Brain arises in awarensss. Oddly, perhaps, if the brain were the source of awareness, there could be no awareness of 'brain'. Awareness must precede it's object." So in realization land, you're aware of your brain? That's definitely some carrot action going on! I think I lost you. You're not aware of brain in non-realization land? There is an idea that awareness can arise from something, and subsequently become aware of that 'something'. This is an illusion that can be seen through. That from which Max arises cannot be an object of awareness.
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Post by enigma on Jun 26, 2013 1:02:15 GMT -5
Greetings.. There's no denying any of this. Of course there is.. i deny that you "see that i can't produce links", you only see no links produced, what can or can't be produced is a matter of speculation.. I d not "stalk enigma", that is a judgement made out of your idea of 'stalking'.. i do read enigma's posts and respond, his is the most cleverly disguised but unsupportable beliefs claimed as 'truth', so.. i engage his illusions more often than similar attempts by others.. Derailing threads? there is no better example of that than your own posts.. LOL.. did you really just accuse someone else of derailing threads??? does your hypocrisy have no limits? Be well.. Laughter is a dreaded thread derailer??.....What did I miss?
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Post by andrew on Jun 26, 2013 2:42:06 GMT -5
So there is a loss of knowledge, which is a realization. The realization 'informs the mind.' And what is expressed is: "Brain arises in awarensss. Oddly, perhaps, if the brain were the source of awareness, there could be no awareness of 'brain'. Awareness must precede it's object." So in realization land, you're aware of your brain? That's definitely some carrot action going on! I think I lost you. You're not aware of brain in non-realization land? There is an idea that awareness can arise from something, and subsequently become aware of that 'something'. This is an illusion that can be seen through. That from which Max arises cannot be an object of awareness. If there is a 'that' from which Max arises (which is not a thing), then there could be no awareness of it by definition, but that says nothing about whether awareness itself is prior to that which is aware. I would agree that its good to see that its not necessarily the case that awareness arises with the something that is aware, on the other hand, its not a given that awareness is prior to the something. Like someone said before, its a neti-neti thing.
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Post by laughter on Jun 26, 2013 5:55:21 GMT -5
I'm not so sure, last time I did that he didn't like it. Well you know the saying, 'Live by the sword or die by the sword'... Or maybe he'll just drop the sword and walk away, we'll see. there's no "or" in that one ...
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Post by laughter on Jun 26, 2013 5:57:47 GMT -5
Well you know the saying, 'Live by the sword or die by the sword'... Or maybe he'll just drop the sword and walk away, we'll see. Walking away would mean letting go, and Tzu just can't do that. To him letting go is similar to defeat. Unthinkable. And therefore not an option. You know he's actually indicated a willingness along those lines and I've got just the tropical fish on my spear to prove it if you need it.
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Post by laughter on Jun 26, 2013 6:00:59 GMT -5
...get outta jail free card. You confirm that you know nothing of realization. This is most often why we fail to communicate. well, in one sense, there is no price, because in the final analysis what's sacrificed isn't worth anything
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2013 8:21:35 GMT -5
So there is a loss of knowledge, which is a realization. The realization 'informs the mind.' And what is expressed is: "Brain arises in awarensss. Oddly, perhaps, if the brain were the source of awareness, there could be no awareness of 'brain'. Awareness must precede it's object." So in realization land, you're aware of your brain? That's definitely some carrot action going on! I think I lost you. You're not aware of brain in non-realization land? You mean like a headache? That might be blood pressure related. There are at least two hypotheses. One is that awareness arises from the brain. Another is that the brain arises within awareness. To be clear, I'm just saying that the latter is still a hypothesis, as is the first. As you said to Andrew the other day, it is not necessary to adopt an opposite belief in negating an other. As Andrew repeated, this is just neti neti.
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Post by enigma on Jun 26, 2013 10:59:36 GMT -5
I think I lost you. You're not aware of brain in non-realization land? There is an idea that awareness can arise from something, and subsequently become aware of that 'something'. This is an illusion that can be seen through. That from which Max arises cannot be an object of awareness. If there is a 'that' from which Max arises (which is not a thing), then there could be no awareness of it by definition, It cannot be an 'object' of awareness. There CAN be self awareness. 'Brain' appears as an object to a subject. It cannot be prior to the subject. (source of subjectivity) It is awareness that is aware. Awareness is not prior to itself, it's prior to everything of which it is aware, which includes brains.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2013 11:09:00 GMT -5
If there is a 'that' from which Max arises (which is not a thing), then there could be no awareness of it by definition, It cannot be an 'object' of awareness. There CAN be self awareness. 'Brain' appears as an object to a subject. It cannot be prior to the subject. (source of subjectivity) It is awareness that is aware. Awareness is not prior to itself, it's prior to everything of which it is aware, which includes brains. Of course these statements are subject to 'having' a brain... It's pretty hard to substantiate awareness as subject if one doesn't possess a brain.
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Post by andrew on Jun 26, 2013 11:11:34 GMT -5
If there is a 'that' from which Max arises (which is not a thing), then there could be no awareness of it by definition, It cannot be an 'object' of awareness. There CAN be self awareness. 'Brain' appears as an object to a subject. It cannot be prior to the subject. (source of subjectivity) It is awareness that is aware. Awareness is not prior to itself, it's prior to everything of which it is aware, which includes brains. I agree that if there is a 'that' from which stuff arises that there can be no awareness of it, that's coz its not a thing. I also agree there can be self-awareness. 'Brain' appears as IF its an object to a subject, because it appears as IF there IS a subject. It can all be neti neti'd. Your logic is false in the second paragraph. It starts off from the presupposition that there 'is' an awareness that is aware, and then obviously ends with the conclusion that awareness is prior. Its not necessarily the case that awareness is prior. It can be seen to be the case if we look a certain way, but that doesn't mean that its true.
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Post by enigma on Jun 26, 2013 11:19:22 GMT -5
I think I lost you. You're not aware of brain in non-realization land? You mean like a headache? That might be blood pressure related. There are at least two hypotheses. One is that awareness arises from the brain. Another is that the brain arises within awareness. To be clear, I'm just saying that the latter is still a hypothesis, as is the first. As you said to Andrew the other day, it is not necessary to adopt an opposite belief in negating an other. As Andrew repeated, this is just neti neti. It need not be a hypothesis, but it is also not a matter of logic or proof. Awareness is prior to whatever arises in awareness. IOW, awareness is obviously prior to anything awareness is aware of. Conversely, awareness cannot appear as the object of awareness. It must be the subject. This radical subjectivity leads to various hypotheses as to how it arises and whether it may come from a lamp post or a brain or whatever. The fact of your awareness is already the ground of the universe and of existence prior to universe.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2013 11:21:53 GMT -5
You mean like a headache? That might be blood pressure related. There are at least two hypotheses. One is that awareness arises from the brain. Another is that the brain arises within awareness. To be clear, I'm just saying that the latter is still a hypothesis, as is the first. As you said to Andrew the other day, it is not necessary to adopt an opposite belief in negating an other. As Andrew repeated, this is just neti neti. It need not be a hypothesis, but it is also not a matter of logic or proof. Awareness is prior to whatever arises in awareness. IOW, awareness is obviously prior to anything awareness is aware of. Conversely, awareness cannot appear as the object of awareness. It must be the subject. This radical subjectivity leads to various hypotheses as to how it arises and whether it may come from a lamp post or a brain or whatever. The fact of your awareness is already the ground of the universe and of existence prior to universe. No idea is true.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2013 11:24:23 GMT -5
You mean like a headache? That might be blood pressure related. There are at least two hypotheses. One is that awareness arises from the brain. Another is that the brain arises within awareness. To be clear, I'm just saying that the latter is still a hypothesis, as is the first. As you said to Andrew the other day, it is not necessary to adopt an opposite belief in negating an other. As Andrew repeated, this is just neti neti. It need not be a hypothesis, but it is also not a matter of logic or proof. Awareness is prior to whatever arises in awareness. IOW, awareness is obviously prior to anything awareness is aware of. Conversely, awareness cannot appear as the object of awareness. It must be the subject. This radical subjectivity leads to various hypotheses as to how it arises and whether it may come from a lamp post or a brain or whatever. The fact of your awareness is already the ground of the universe and of existence prior to universe. Perhaps a lobotomy would be in order to see if your subjectivity would remain intact...
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Post by andrew on Jun 26, 2013 11:25:21 GMT -5
You mean like a headache? That might be blood pressure related. There are at least two hypotheses. One is that awareness arises from the brain. Another is that the brain arises within awareness. To be clear, I'm just saying that the latter is still a hypothesis, as is the first. As you said to Andrew the other day, it is not necessary to adopt an opposite belief in negating an other. As Andrew repeated, this is just neti neti. It need not be a hypothesis, but it is also not a matter of logic or proof. Awareness is prior to whatever arises in awareness. IOW, awareness is obviously prior to anything awareness is aware of. Conversely, awareness cannot appear as the object of awareness. It must be the subject. This radical subjectivity leads to various hypotheses as to how it arises and whether it may come from a lamp post or a brain or whatever. The fact of your awareness is already the ground of the universe and of existence prior to universe. Again, starting from a presupposition. At most, its a useful pointer away from conditioning, but its a mistake to take the pointer as something more than that.
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Post by enigma on Jun 26, 2013 11:27:49 GMT -5
It cannot be an 'object' of awareness. There CAN be self awareness. 'Brain' appears as an object to a subject. It cannot be prior to the subject. (source of subjectivity) It is awareness that is aware. Awareness is not prior to itself, it's prior to everything of which it is aware, which includes brains. Of course these statements are subject to 'having' a brain... It's pretty hard to substantiate awareness as subject if one doesn't possess a brain. You don't need a brain to think or a body to perceive. if it appears that way, then that's just how it appears. ***Rolling on the floor laughing so as to create the illusion of being a body with a brain***
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