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Post by Beingist on Jun 7, 2013 11:34:29 GMT -5
Being. Innocence. Same thing.
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Post by enigma on Jun 7, 2013 11:42:21 GMT -5
I basically agree with what you say about innocence. It's more about what's not present, not being done, not thought or believed or known. As such, it can't be accomplished as one cannot accomplish an absence or an unknowing. Hencely, knowledge is transcended, which means, for example, that we know of good and evil, but we understand the nature of it and have ceased to struggle to make it other than it is. One cannot return to innocence once lost, and the direction is always forward. I would also say that if it feels good you are probly going in the wrong direction as what is apparently being satisfied are needs that originate in an imaginary self. The Peace that passeth all understandingeth is a different matter, and doesn't qualify as a goal for the separate self precisely because it doesn't satisfy those needs of the separate self. Well, we are kinda back to defining what "feeling good" means, in my meaning I guess I'm talking about "the peace that passeth understandingeth" lol Okayeth. Because something is known that was not known before and cannot be unknown. Isn't this why we don't want to expose children to aspects of the world in which they may 'lose their innocence'? We know that this cannot be undone because we ourselves have not been able to undo it for ourselves. The idea that you can let go of knowledge presupposes that you have control over the content of your own mind, in particular memory. How can you unknow what you know, especially if that knowledge continues to be confirmed in your experience? Can you 'unknow' man's selfishness and cruelty? Can you unknow man's suffering? It's a big word but it's not complicated. When you realize that what looks like a snake is really a rope, you have transcended the idea that it appears to be a snake. It still looks like a snake from a distance, and that knowledge hasn't gone anywhere or been let go of, but you've included that idea and gone beyond it and no longer struggle with it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 11:43:14 GMT -5
Being. Innocence. Same thing. Yeah... ever consider changing your name to Innocent-ist  |
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Post by Beingist on Jun 7, 2013 11:55:34 GMT -5
Being. Innocence. Same thing. Yeah... ever consider changing your name to Innocent-ist LOL Um. No. I had played with a few names before this one, but once Beingist hit me, I understood that that was, like, it. It's kinda like ... Adyashanti. Or Twiggy. Or Bono. At least, in terms of forum names. Not likely to ever change, for me. Even if I'm temp-banned again, I'll come back (if I come back) under the same moniker. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 12:01:36 GMT -5
Well, we are kinda back to defining what "feeling good" means, in my meaning I guess I'm talking about "the peace that passeth understandingeth" lol Okayeth. Because something is known that was not known before and cannot be unknown. Isn't this why we don't want to expose children to aspects of the world in which they may 'lose their innocence'? We know that this cannot be undone because we ourselves have not been able to undo it for ourselves. The idea that you can let go of knowledge presupposes that you have control over the content of your own mind, in particular memory. How can you unknow what you know, especially if that knowledge continues to be confirmed in your experience? Can you 'unknow' man's selfishness and cruelty? Can you unknow man's suffering? "How can you unknow what you know?"
Dunno, just kinda seems to happen when the mind is just being still....the way I usually show people is to have them look at a tree, but just look at it, don't mentally define it, or even recognize it, just look....then stop looking...that can give you a glimpse through a kind of effort to be still...or you could just be, without making the effort to know, define, recognize, or remember, for me, that's pretty innocent, and about the easiest thing there is, because its kinda the natural state when you aren't moving about.It's a big word but it's not complicated. When you realize that what looks like a snake is really a rope, you have transcended the idea that it appears to be a snake. It still looks like a snake from a distance, and that knowledge hasn't gone anywhere or been let go of, but you've included that idea and gone beyond it and no longer struggle with it. Seems like you are talking about figuring stuff out in a way that you become comfortable with it, nothing wrong with that, especially if it helps open a space....but this business of "including ideas" to transcend something seems like adding something to try and remove something.., that's too complicated for me :-) |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 12:11:50 GMT -5
Okayeth. Because something is known that was not known before and cannot be unknown. Isn't this why we don't want to expose children to aspects of the world in which they may 'lose their innocence'? We know that this cannot be undone because we ourselves have not been able to undo it for ourselves. The idea that you can let go of knowledge presupposes that you have control over the content of your own mind, in particular memory. How can you unknow what you know, especially if that knowledge continues to be confirmed in your experience? Can you 'unknow' man's selfishness and cruelty? Can you unknow man's suffering? How can you unknow what you know? Dunno, just kinda seems to happen when the mind is just being still....the way I usually show people is to have them look at a tree, but just look at it, don't mentally define it, or even recognize it, just look....then stop looking...that can give you a glimpse through a kind of effort to be still...or you could just be, without making the effort to know, define, recognize, or remember, for me, that's pretty innocent, and about the easiest thing there is, because its kinda the natural state when you aren't moving about.It's a big word but it's not complicated. When you realize that what looks like a snake is really a rope, you have transcended the idea that it appears to be a snake. It still looks like a snake from a distance, and that knowledge hasn't gone anywhere or been let go of, but you've included that idea and gone beyond it and no longer struggle with it. Seems like "including ideas" is adding something to try and remove something..., that's too complicated for me :-) yes, I'd say that fully letting go is about being at one with the moment. So long as thoughts are still being entertained pertaining to what happened in the past or what might happen in the future, OR about the very existence of a past or future, ideas such as, 'we cannot let go completely' will continue to fill our cup. I'd say it's that very idea itself, (that we cannot let go completely) that gets dumped out with all of the other content that is presently filling our cup, in order for innocence to be. But if we're hanging onto ideas like that and calling them truth, they're going to be pretty sticky and pretty hard to dump out...almost like a cup full of honey...just not as sweet.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 12:45:55 GMT -5
Well said Figless
I have no idea what is true or false lol
Seems like EVERYTHING is true, or EVERYTHING is false....cept from some perspectives some things are true while others are false lol
Maybe it's better to just let go of the whole business of true or false?
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Post by jazz on Jun 7, 2013 13:55:15 GMT -5
Lots of replies here, too many to adress individually, some really good ones. Thank you!  Thing is, I've been struggling with judgements. Struggling to "get rid of them", but also not recognising judgements and so not being aware of them. This, for example, led to some inner rage agains a friend of mine who's very, very lost in stories of inadequasy and judgements against everything. She's just refusing to be helped in any way and the complaints go on and on. This frustrated me a lot and I thought I had to "help" her become more conscious. This inevitably failed and I guess I learned a lot. But there continued to be conflict within me even tough I "had let go of" trying to change her. There continued to be a subtle rage against her for not just f.ucking seeing through her bul.lshit stories (yeah, that kinda rage). It then struck me that in order for me to really let her off the hook I would have to see her as innocent. I would have to see me as innocent, I would have to see everything innocent. There really IS no one there doing anything and as long as there is, there can't be innocence. This feels both good and bad. It feels good to let go of the burden (and subtle egoic pleasure) of having to judge and it's a defeat, obviously, for the ego, which doesn't feel good. But have you noticed that the ego doesn't actually feel good, like, ever? What it deems "feeling good", upon investigation, doesn't have the qualities of letting go and true forgiveness. It's always a conditional feeling good, and often it's loaded with contractions, in my experience. I'm also noticing how seeing the world through innocence reveals otherwise hidden judgements. As long as there's judgement, there is someONE there doing something. So again, kinda scary and very humbling. |
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Post by jazz on Jun 7, 2013 13:57:40 GMT -5
"Scary and humbling" for the judge and jury, mind you  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 16:41:24 GMT -5
Judgement is the fuel that keeps the engine going, knowledge and understanding are the vehicle....once enough knowledge and understanding is accumulated the vehicle seems to plough forward on autopilot.
Denying it fuel can stop the forward movement, and eventually, from disuse and lack of maintenance, the vehicle will just fade away.
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Post by silence on Jun 7, 2013 16:56:49 GMT -5
How did this experiment make you feel....in my experience, if it feels good then you are probably going in the right direction. What direction is that? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 17:11:53 GMT -5
How did this experiment make you feel....in my experience, if it feels good then you are probably going in the right direction. What direction is that? Toward where you already are. |
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Post by enigma on Jun 7, 2013 20:10:01 GMT -5
Greetings.. I didn't know your comments were about ME, ME, ME. Hehe. I don't believe I'm attached to any beliefs. I just talk about obvious stuff. The contradictions and inconsistencies are the result of your struggle with the obvious. Both oneness and separation is Contradiction with a capital 'C'. If you're attached to one or the other, it might seem like a contradiction.. let go of beliefs and attachments, look at what is actually happening, and 'both' are self-evident observations within the context of labels and descriptions.. Be well.. I can see how it's not a contradiction if one is attached to defining oneness as a working together of separate parts, but of course that's absurd. |
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Post by enigma on Jun 7, 2013 20:10:56 GMT -5
Greetings.. I didn't know your comments were about ME, ME, ME. Hehe. I don't believe I'm attached to any beliefs. I just talk about obvious stuff. The contradictions and inconsistencies are the result of your struggle with the obvious. Both oneness and separation is Contradiction with a capital 'C'. If you're attached to one or the other, it might seem like a contradiction.. let go of beliefs and attachments, look at what is actually happening, and 'both' are self-evident observations within the context of labels and descriptions.. Be well.. I can see how it's not a contradiction if one is attached to defining oneness as a working together of separate parts, but of course that's absurd. |
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 7, 2013 20:17:23 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. If you're attached to one or the other, it might seem like a contradiction.. let go of beliefs and attachments, look at what is actually happening, and 'both' are self-evident observations within the context of labels and descriptions.. Be well.. I can see how it's not a contradiction if one is attached to defining oneness as a working together of separate parts, but of course that's absurd. LOL, well.. it's the illusion 'you' use to get the reactions 'you' choose.. i wonder if you've wondered why you choose the 'way' you do.. Be well.. |
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