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Post by enigma on Jan 28, 2013 20:47:25 GMT -5
Well, but it has to. Where it begins is with a passel of preconceived thoughts. And not so oddly, they talk about ideas in hopes of getting you to look and see beyond the ideas for yourself. Nobody here is 'teaching doctrines, faith or belief'. Yes, when it's time. There are some who can't read the words in a post no matter how many times it's read, and to ask this person to approach Reality in that way is completely unreasonable and futile. It's necessary to begin at the beginning rather than the end. Most can't tell the difference. How has that talking about a passel of preconceived thoughts, in hoping for someone to see Reality, worked with Andrew, or Silver or anyone from this forum for that matter?  Perhaps if folks learned to trust that they 'can' tell the difference between thought and seeing, they'd realize that they can't get that seeing from teachers, or anyone, or anything. Especially from the teachers who believe that they can't tell the difference. Pointing isn't helpful for those folks because of where they're at, not because the pointers are not useful. Lots of others DO find them useful. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 28, 2013 20:58:39 GMT -5
I know he doesn't own it, but I did resonate with his take on it. It made sense to me. Just about. I only see one peace (absence of turbulence/conflict), though I think it can be helpful and relevant to create a distinction between peace, and prior to conditions peace, in the same way I think it can be helpful and relevant to create a distinction between Becoming and Being. As I see it, prior to conditions peace has no place on the qualia model, except perhaps as an experience that arises out of a particular 'patterning'. In its own way, prior to conditions peace is considerably more imaginary than peace, because peace has nothing to do with patterning. Editing: Sorry I'm having to think about this and edit a bit because I am not fluent in qualia speak. I have no idea what you mean by conditional peace or prior-to-conditions peace. Are you talking situational/contextual? I'm only "at peace" when I have my pacifier in my mouth? The absence of the pacifier qualia necessitates turbulence quale? This would be modeling causality over time as opposed to looking at the qualia present in a single instant. let me motivate the second kind of peace: The peace of a calm placid lake in the mountains on a cool crisp morning. There is a felt quality to this peace and the effects of its presence is that it is calming and bringing about the non-turbulant version of peace. Analogy: Cold is the absence of warmth. An ice-cube feels cold because it is "sucking" the warmth away. 2 different definitions of cold. similarly 2 different peaces. Prior-to-conditions peace is the absence of the potential for disturbance by a change in condition because the peace is not caused by any condition. |
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Post by silence on Jan 29, 2013 1:39:39 GMT -5
Your interest goes to what you're interested in (imagine that! ;D). Life doesn't necessarily unfold by all of a sudden you staring at rocks and listening to birds until your whole thought structure collapses. It may have unfolded that way for ZD but it's important to understand that there is no "the way". ATA, meditation and simply sitting down and shutting up are all things that you can't force. In other words, they aren't things you buckle down and do with the commitment of an iron fist. I disagree. When I was working on the 'who am I' question it was entirely a matter of saying 'x off' to my normal routine and following it 100%. Even when I went to hang out with friends and we'd have a fire going or something I would seriously stare at the fire for hours asking myself "Who am I?" As ZD often says, persistence is key. What you can't fake is interest. Maybe that's what you were referring to (I don't know because I don't read much these days), but I thought that was worth clarifying. Right, you would stare at the fire and "work on the who am I question" because it interested you. Why it interested you is a whole other can of worms. |
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Post by silence on Jan 29, 2013 1:48:28 GMT -5
Your interest goes to what you're interested in (imagine that! ;D). Life doesn't necessarily unfold by all of a sudden you staring at rocks and listening to birds until your whole thought structure collapses. It may have unfolded that way for ZD but it's important to understand that there is no "the way". ATA, meditation and simply sitting down and shutting up are all things that you can't force. In other words, they aren't things you buckle down and do with the commitment of an iron fist. Possibly not entirely related, but a thought struck me of how weird it must be for a Self-realized being to see itself running around pretending to be "persons", claiming to not be the Self, and twisting themselves up in all sorts of crazy ways. Guru: "Just be. Attend the actual. Allow everything to be as it is" Me: "Right! I will definitely think about that" Guru: "Er..." Me: "No? OK, minding is bad is it? Then I will stop thoughts entirely, then everything can be as it is" Guru: "Errr.." Me: "No? OK, well skip that idea then. I'll just make good and sure to force myself to let everything be as it is for two hours a day" Guru: <slaps forehead> (a short while later) Me: "Oh darn. I didn't remember let things be as much they should have been. Things are definitely as they shouldn't be. I am a failure" Guru: <stifles laugh> Me: "Oh, by the way, is moving my leg when it is in pain from sitting in the lotus position allowing everything to be as it is or not? Which is the best allowing - to move or not to move?" Guru: "My compassion is wearing thin." (a short time later) Me: "I've found this great new technique" Guru: "Saywhat?" Me: "Yeah, it's allowing everything to be as it is in a different, new, and easier way. This way will be better than the old way that I didn't do so good at" Guru: "Good luck with that" ...ad nauseum... Surely there could be a decent sitcom made about the stupidity (said in a kind way) of seekers. Yeah, the whole thing is ridiculous. What I often observe is that people simply eat up the absurdity like it's a delicious dish served to them. They add dozens of layers of spiritual concepts to all the other failed societal ideals that are half dead but still somewhat believed in. They get themselves into these epic dillemas that exist only in thought and emotion. The irony is that turning to spiritual forums or other spiritual material only seems to reinforce the reality of their nightmare because of the culture of living in one's own fantasies that are prevelant. |
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Post by mamza on Jan 29, 2013 2:18:48 GMT -5
I disagree. When I was working on the 'who am I' question it was entirely a matter of saying 'x off' to my normal routine and following it 100%. Even when I went to hang out with friends and we'd have a fire going or something I would seriously stare at the fire for hours asking myself "Who am I?" As ZD often says, persistence is key. What you can't fake is interest. Maybe that's what you were referring to (I don't know because I don't read much these days), but I thought that was worth clarifying. Right, you would stare at the fire and "work on the who am I question" because it interested you. Why it interested you is a whole other can of worms. Why it interests someone is unimportant, only whether or not it does. It sounded more like you were talking about being unable to be persistent rather than unable to force interest in it. |
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Post by james on Jan 29, 2013 2:33:00 GMT -5
From the moment I open my eyes in the morning to the moment I drop off to sleep (and aside for being immersed in work or some other thing), I have 'who am I' as a question going on in some form. I wouldn't say interest is lacking. But from looking at my behavior (and not just with ATA) I could say that I have a problem concentrating it on one path.
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Post by esponja on Jan 29, 2013 8:02:01 GMT -5
Yep seems similar to what Mr Tolle prescribes. Really not sure why it's so hard. When I do attend with full attention, I have this Love of life! Even the things I'd label 'not so good' take on a beauty. However, I seem to forget and carry on as before and the 'searching' kicks in again. If 'love of life' and 'beauty' are one end of the stick, you can't avoid the other end. This is not Peace. Mmm funny, I was just sitting here thinking. I've had a bit of a rubbish day, nothing external happened but just this horrible ache (that's the best I can do to describe it, but depression or sadness or longing or something gloomy) has been with me. I've added stories all day of course. So I realized that I feel like this a lot. Always have. Now it's less, but it's there. I have a desire for it to go...resistance. I realized that this is really still, somewhat unconsciously, what this search is about. So was interesting to read yours and ZDs posts 5 mins later. I know you'll tell me to really feel this 'gloom' etc but I have tried that. This sounds basic but quite a big thing for me to admit. Perhaps my sincerity is lacking afterall. |
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Post by topology on Jan 29, 2013 8:18:29 GMT -5
From the moment I open my eyes in the morning to the moment I drop off to sleep (and aside for being immersed in work or some other thing), I have 'who am I' as a question going on in some form. I wouldn't say interest is lacking. But from looking at my behavior (and not just with ATA) I could say that I have a problem concentrating it on one path. Any thoughts on why the "who am I?" question doesn't seem to be evoking an answer to dispell the questioning? |
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Post by topology on Jan 29, 2013 8:21:02 GMT -5
I have no idea what you mean by conditional peace or prior-to-conditions peace. Are you talking situational/contextual? I'm only "at peace" when I have my pacifier in my mouth? The absence of the pacifier qualia necessitates turbulence quale? This would be modeling causality over time as opposed to looking at the qualia present in a single instant. let me motivate the second kind of peace: The peace of a calm placid lake in the mountains on a cool crisp morning. There is a felt quality to this peace and the effects of its presence is that it is calming and bringing about the non-turbulant version of peace. Analogy: Cold is the absence of warmth. An ice-cube feels cold because it is "sucking" the warmth away. 2 different definitions of cold. similarly 2 different peaces. Prior-to-conditions peace is the absence of the potential for disturbance by a change in condition because the peace is not caused by any condition. Thanks for the translation! |
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Post by james on Jan 29, 2013 8:30:14 GMT -5
(in response to Top)
Probably because I have and/or am doing it all the wrong ways:
1) Thinking about it
2) Imagining an answer
3) Trying to 'fall into' a state consistent with some imagined answer
4) Witnessing stuff, which is just split mind witnessing with intermediary alive and well but hiding
5) LOOKing or SEEing directly, coming up with nothing and thinking 'that can't be it, because this nothing is tangible and it feels like I (as a person) am witnessing it'
6) Experimenting too many different ways, or not trying one thing for long enough
7) Aborting a technique because it feels like no progress is being made
8) Efforting instead of just being/allowing
...
I look like an utter idiot, even to myself. But hey, I must play this part it looks like (hopefully not forever).
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Post by zendancer on Jan 29, 2013 9:15:07 GMT -5
He also told me in that book to do this clarity of purpose exercise! ;D I.e. this bit minding business. I apologize for somehow slipping off the ATA road. Like I say, I don't know how it happened. How many ATA-ers have you seen go the 'whole 9 yards' (as I believe is an expression in America for 'all the way')? Your interest goes to what you're interested in (imagine that! ;D). Life doesn't necessarily unfold by all of a sudden you staring at rocks and listening to birds until your whole thought structure collapses. It may have unfolded that way for ZD but it's important to understand that there is no "the way". ATA, meditation and simply sitting down and shutting up are all things that you can't force. In other words, they aren't things you buckle down and do with the commitment of an iron fist. This is a great point. One of the first things that gets discovered on this path is that who we THINK we are ("me") can't control what happens. This is because who we THINK we are is imaginary even though it doesn't feel this way, and an imaginary person can't do anything. This means that whatever unfolds is mysteriously unpredictable. Whether one sits in meditation, ATA's, or inquires "Who am I?" can only be probabilistically related to what happens. Although some people, such as Niz, may have followed a single strategy (focusing attention solely upon the sense of "I am"), I suspect that most people follow a shotgun-wide approach and try a bit of everything. Koan study, ATA, shikan taza, contemplation, self inquiry, etc. are all forms of shifting attention away from thoughts to "what is." The entire pathless path can sort of be summed up as "attention, attention, attention." I remember thinking at one point early in the search, "OMG, at times I get busy and forget to meditate. How can I ever find out what I want to know if I continually forget to meditate?" Ha ha! The good news is that people who desperately want to know the truth are people through whom THIS is wanting to know the truth. This means that there is a high degree of probability that such body/minds will keep returning to the search. This body/mind tried dozens of techniques and strategies (breath counting meditation, breath awareness meditation, breath following meditation, being the breath meditation, shikan taza, ATA, koan contemplation, mantra repetition, heart sutra recitation, mindfulness, etc), but it was never interested in Tibetan visualization meditations (I saw no point in using imagination to visualize stuff because imagination seemed to be what generates the consensus trance in the first place). I also never tried the loving kindness meditations used by many Tibetan Buddhists because my interest was in understanding reality rather than attaining happiness or becoming "more spiritual." The word "persistence" is used more as a form of encouragement than anything else. It is also a recognition of certain probabalistic tendencies (ie. those people who relentlessly pursue the truth tend to find it or, in Enigma's words, "they tend to find what is not true). Have some people gone "all the way" using ATA? Sure. Breath awareness meditation is a form of ATA, and that is a primary practice in the Zen tradition. The reason I spent a great deal of time looking at the world non-conceptually during everyday activities was my intuitive sense that that form of ATA could free the body/mind from the compulsion of incessant thought. I wondered what it would be like to look at the world in the same way as a small child--in silence--and ATA was a way to find out. I theorized that little children lose their direct interaction with the world because they shift their attention from "what is" to ideas, images, and symbols. Taking attention away from ideas, images, and symbols and holding it upon "what is" would probably reverse the process. As it turned out, this speculation was correct. Sustained ATA leads to mental silence at will, and mental silence makes many things obvious that otherwise might remain unknown. For example, being able to go about daily activities without having to think, and without constant verbal commentary, makes it obvious that 95% of all thinking is unnecessary and is usually superfluous. Oh well, gotta go to work. Have a great day everyone! |
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Post by topology on Jan 29, 2013 11:00:07 GMT -5
Probably because I have and/or am doing it all the wrong ways: 1) Thinking about it 2) Imagining an answer 3) Trying to 'fall into' a state consistent with some imagined answer 4) Witnessing stuff, which is just split mind witnessing with intermediary alive and well but hiding 5) LOOKing or SEEing directly, coming up with nothing and thinking 'that can't be it, because this nothing is tangible and it feels like I (as a person) am witnessing it' 6) Experimenting too many different ways, or not trying one thing for long enough 7) Aborting a technique because it feels like no progress is being made 8) Efforting instead of just being/allowing ... I look like an utter idiot, even to myself. But hey, I must play this part it looks like (hopefully not forever). Have you considered the possibility that you don't really want the answer to the question? |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 29, 2013 11:31:55 GMT -5
Probably because I have and/or am doing it all the wrong ways: 1) Thinking about it 2) Imagining an answer 3) Trying to 'fall into' a state consistent with some imagined answer 4) Witnessing stuff, which is just split mind witnessing with intermediary alive and well but hiding 5) LOOKing or SEEing directly, coming up with nothing and thinking 'that can't be it, because this nothing is tangible and it feels like I (as a person) am witnessing it' 6) Experimenting too many different ways, or not trying one thing for long enough 7) Aborting a technique because it feels like no progress is being made 8) Efforting instead of just being/allowing ... I look like an utter idiot, even to myself. But hey, I must play this part it looks like (hopefully not forever). Have you considered the possibility that you don't really want the answer to the question? I would say that what James wrote is pretty good evidence that he wants the answer quite badly, and his path is perfectly in alignment with that desire. Surely most people who have followed this path very far can identify with his statements. The whole thing is laughable, but obviously necessary. |
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Post by james on Jan 29, 2013 12:39:57 GMT -5
Have you considered the possibility that you don't really want the answer to the question? Oh yes. A few times. And I've even convinced myself I'm an idiot for pursuing it, that I will be happier forgetting about it, etc. I've also 'given up', both with and without a subtle background of "if I give up, maybe it will happen". Don't you feel that once you've got skin in this game there's no way back to being satisfied with 'regular life' with this personal perspective? The ego (if i may promote it to entity for a minute) will either continue its fearful machinations rooted in its view of separation (the 'stop seeking' option), or it gets blasted to oblivion (the 'get the answer' option). I seriously can't STAND this ego of mine. The more clearly I see it, the more I understand and am shocked by how subtly violent, manipulating, scheming it is, and frankly how downright scared out of its wits by 'the world' it is. And my ego is pretty normal, I would think. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 12:44:29 GMT -5
How has that talking about a passel of preconceived thoughts, in hoping for someone to see Reality, worked with Andrew, or Silver or anyone from this forum for that matter? Perhaps if folks learned to trust that they 'can' tell the difference between thought and seeing, they'd realize that they can't get that seeing from teachers, or anyone, or anything. Especially from the teachers who believe that they can't tell the difference. Pointing isn't helpful for those folks because of where they're at, not because the pointers are not useful. Lots of others DO find them useful. Where they are at is already inseparable from Reality. Teaching Bhuddha's to polish stones into mirrors, so that they can become Bhudda's should be avoided not advocated. |
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