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Post by enigma on Oct 14, 2012 20:47:02 GMT -5
[quote author=andrew board=misc thre. ...In seeing One there are Two.. ...In seeing One there are Two... Nominated for the pearl of the day I second the nomination.
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Post by quinn on Oct 15, 2012 5:26:39 GMT -5
If anything, over here, it's been much much more about relief than sorrow. That guy never really held himself in high esteem anyway. ;D Me too, Laughter. Relief sums it up. She was a pain in the a$$. Debbie Downer and soooo repetitious. ;D
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Post by laughter on Oct 15, 2012 12:23:25 GMT -5
If anything, over here, it's been much much more about relief than sorrow. That guy never really held himself in high esteem anyway. ;D Me too, Laughter. Relief sums it up. She was a pain in the a$$. Debbie Downer and soooo repetitious. ;D funny funny Quinn ... repetitious ... oh yeah ...
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Post by Beingist on Oct 15, 2012 17:18:40 GMT -5
Hmmm... I still have questions regarding this suffering thing. We still have no established, understood definition. I mean, if we don't know what suffering is, how in the world can we know that we're suffering? CAN we know that we're suffering? If we can, then what options are available to end it? How can we know if we even want to end it, if we don't even know what it's like NOT to suffer? It all still seems to boil down to the definition of suffering. I mean, am *I* suffering, right now? Are you, the reader? Is Andrew suffering? Is Enigma suffering? Did Jesus really suffer while on the cross? Are homeless people suffering, if they're otherwise, generally content? *sigh* Man, for teachers, you guys really stink.
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Post by quinn on Oct 15, 2012 17:54:02 GMT -5
*sigh* Man, for teachers, you guys really stink. heehee
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Post by Portto on Oct 15, 2012 18:33:31 GMT -5
Hmmm... I still have questions regarding this suffering thing. We still have no established, understood definition. I mean, if we don't know what suffering is, how in the world can we know that we're suffering? CAN we know that we're suffering? If we can, then what options are available to end it? How can we know if we even want to end it, if we don't even know what it's like NOT to suffer? It all still seems to boil down to the definition of suffering. I mean, am *I* suffering, right now? Are you, the reader? Is Andrew suffering? Is Enigma suffering? Did Jesus really suffer while on the cross? Are homeless people suffering, if they're otherwise, generally content? You're expecting too much from words. You're expecting words to generate clear and intense experiences. Words can generate experiences, but they are usually shallow and fleeting. It's much clearer when you use words to describe an experience you're having. What does a word (any word) really mean?
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Post by Beingist on Oct 15, 2012 18:51:38 GMT -5
Hmmm... I still have questions regarding this suffering thing. We still have no established, understood definition. I mean, if we don't know what suffering is, how in the world can we know that we're suffering? CAN we know that we're suffering? If we can, then what options are available to end it? How can we know if we even want to end it, if we don't even know what it's like NOT to suffer? It all still seems to boil down to the definition of suffering. I mean, am *I* suffering, right now? Are you, the reader? Is Andrew suffering? Is Enigma suffering? Did Jesus really suffer while on the cross? Are homeless people suffering, if they're otherwise, generally content? You're expecting too much from words. You're expecting words to generate clear and intense experiences. Words can generate experiences, but they are usually shallow and fleeting. It's much clearer when you use words to describe an experience you're having. What does a word (any word) really mean? Good point--one that I made, myself ... somewhere around here. 'Suffering' is subjective. Yeah, I get that. What I still don't get, though, is how and why we concern ourselves with the suffering of others, if we, ourselves, cannot conclude that they're suffering, due to the subjective nature of not only the word 'suffering', but of suffering, itself. I do not consider that I am presently suffering. Nor do I consider myself suffering, even though I may experience temporary physical or emotional pain (I have not experienced chronic pain, so I can't speak to that). However, in all sincerity, if I look back on my past, I can see where I was indeed suffering (primarily emotionally), yet at that time, I wouldn't have admitted it. What's up with that? What's the difference between then and now, if I'm still the same (presumed) person? As I see it, the reason why I can say that I was suffering in the past is because I believed myself a person at all, while currently, if I do, it is much less so. So, does this mean that anyone who believes themselves to be a person is bound to suffer?
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Post by Portto on Oct 15, 2012 19:23:57 GMT -5
What I still don't get, though, is how and why we concern ourselves with the suffering of others, if we, ourselves, cannot conclude that they're suffering, due to the subjective nature of not only the word 'suffering', but of suffering, itself. Someone asks and someone else gives. That's all. Does this show concern with suffering? If we want to make it so, yes. The main difference is in thinking.
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Post by relinquish on Oct 15, 2012 20:54:50 GMT -5
What's the difference between then and now, if I'm still the same (presumed) person? But indeed, that person of the past you are refering to exists now only as memory. It has been raplaced with a new, different person/personality. The Being that you actually are and were back then is all that remains, but it doesn't have (and never had) any of those attributes or tendancies.
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Post by enigma on Oct 15, 2012 21:00:43 GMT -5
Hmmm... I still have questions regarding this suffering thing. We still have no established, understood definition. I mean, if we don't know what suffering is, how in the world can we know that we're suffering? CAN we know that we're suffering? If we can, then what options are available to end it? How can we know if we even want to end it, if we don't even know what it's like NOT to suffer? It all still seems to boil down to the definition of suffering. I mean, am *I* suffering, right now? Are you, the reader? Is Andrew suffering? Is Enigma suffering? Did Jesus really suffer while on the cross? Are homeless people suffering, if they're otherwise, generally content? *sigh* Man, for teachers, you guys really stink. The whole point is that it's a self created illusion. There's no suffering bug that you can point to and say, 'There it is, crawling across the table top!' You can't objectively find out if you are experiencing a subjective illusion. Now, that's a good question. It's what the whole head banging analogy is about.
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Post by enigma on Oct 15, 2012 21:02:05 GMT -5
Hmmm... I still have questions regarding this suffering thing. We still have no established, understood definition. I mean, if we don't know what suffering is, how in the world can we know that we're suffering? CAN we know that we're suffering? If we can, then what options are available to end it? How can we know if we even want to end it, if we don't even know what it's like NOT to suffer? It all still seems to boil down to the definition of suffering. I mean, am *I* suffering, right now? Are you, the reader? Is Andrew suffering? Is Enigma suffering? Did Jesus really suffer while on the cross? Are homeless people suffering, if they're otherwise, generally content? You're expecting too much from words. You're expecting words to generate clear and intense experiences. Words can generate experiences, but they are usually shallow and fleeting. It's much clearer when you use words to describe an experience you're having. What does a word (any word) really mean?Another good question.
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Post by Beingist on Oct 15, 2012 21:08:26 GMT -5
Hmmm... I still have questions regarding this suffering thing. We still have no established, understood definition. I mean, if we don't know what suffering is, how in the world can we know that we're suffering? CAN we know that we're suffering? If we can, then what options are available to end it? How can we know if we even want to end it, if we don't even know what it's like NOT to suffer? It all still seems to boil down to the definition of suffering. I mean, am *I* suffering, right now? Are you, the reader? Is Andrew suffering? Is Enigma suffering? Did Jesus really suffer while on the cross? Are homeless people suffering, if they're otherwise, generally content? *sigh* Man, for teachers, you guys really stink. The whole point is that it's a self created illusion. There's no suffering bug that you can point to and say, 'There it is, crawling across the table top!' You can't objectively find out if you are experiencing a subjective illusion. Understood. However, as a self-created illusion, isn't on the sufferer to see through it? "The mind must undo what the mind has done," said Niz. One's mind can't be undone by another mind. Does this not mean it's a choice? And if so, why are we here, seemingly trying to dispel the illusions of other minds?
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Post by enigma on Oct 15, 2012 21:25:07 GMT -5
You're expecting too much from words. You're expecting words to generate clear and intense experiences. Words can generate experiences, but they are usually shallow and fleeting. It's much clearer when you use words to describe an experience you're having. What does a word (any word) really mean? Good point--one that I made, myself ... somewhere around here. 'Suffering' is subjective. Yeah, I get that. What I still don't get, though, is how and why we concern ourselves with the suffering of others, if we, ourselves, cannot conclude that they're suffering, due to the subjective nature of not only the word 'suffering', but of suffering, itself. I do not consider that I am presently suffering. Nor do I consider myself suffering, even though I may experience temporary physical or emotional pain (I have not experienced chronic pain, so I can't speak to that). However, in all sincerity, if I look back on my past, I can see where I was indeed suffering (primarily emotionally), yet at that time, I wouldn't have admitted it. What's up with that? What's the difference between then and now, if I'm still the same (presumed) person? As I see it, the reason why I can say that I was suffering in the past is because I believed myself a person at all, while currently, if I do, it is much less so. So, does this mean that anyone who believes themselves to be a person is bound to suffer? Given the belief in personhood, I don't see how suffering can be avoided for long, but really suffering is a relative condition. You were clearly suffering when you were praying to die. Whether you admitted it or not, that's pretty much a 'dead' giveaway. You were suffering then because it was worse than your life prior to that. If your whole life had felt the same as it did when you were praying to die, would you have been suffering and praying to die? No, everything would have been fine. The suffering only arose in what you perceived to be worse than it had been. In ceasing to believe in personhood, maybe you now see that your life prior to the praying to die was also suffering, though it didn't seem like it at the time because you had nothing better to compare it too. That's the nature of subjectivity. It's also why there is no such thing as permanent happiness.
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Post by Beingist on Oct 15, 2012 21:49:30 GMT -5
Good point--one that I made, myself ... somewhere around here. 'Suffering' is subjective. Yeah, I get that. What I still don't get, though, is how and why we concern ourselves with the suffering of others, if we, ourselves, cannot conclude that they're suffering, due to the subjective nature of not only the word 'suffering', but of suffering, itself. I do not consider that I am presently suffering. Nor do I consider myself suffering, even though I may experience temporary physical or emotional pain (I have not experienced chronic pain, so I can't speak to that). However, in all sincerity, if I look back on my past, I can see where I was indeed suffering (primarily emotionally), yet at that time, I wouldn't have admitted it. What's up with that? What's the difference between then and now, if I'm still the same (presumed) person? As I see it, the reason why I can say that I was suffering in the past is because I believed myself a person at all, while currently, if I do, it is much less so. So, does this mean that anyone who believes themselves to be a person is bound to suffer? Given the belief in personhood, I don't see how suffering can be avoided for long, but really suffering is a relative condition. You were clearly suffering when you were praying to die. Whether you admitted it or not, that's pretty much a 'dead' giveaway. You were suffering then because it was worse than your life prior to that. If your whole life had felt the same as it did when you were praying to die, would you have been suffering and praying to die? No, everything would have been fine. The suffering only arose in what you perceived to be worse than it had been. In ceasing to believe in personhood, maybe you now see that your life prior to the praying to die was also suffering, though it didn't seem like it at the time because you had nothing better to compare it too. Yanno, it's interesting that you bring this up, because in hindsight, those three days and nights of utter despair was probably my realization that I was ever suffering at all. In all honesty, I probably felt no worse then, than during any other depressed state before that time, and I had plenty. But, it was at that point that I was simply fed up with it. But, what to do about it? I knew (though don't ask me how) that suicide was no answer. So, the only thing I could do was allow myself to really feel it. Seriously, I was rather trying to ... depress myself to death. In the end, the 'I' in all that began to die. And at last, the real 'I' (if one could even call it that) finally started living. Agreed. But, none of this answers the question. Before I could appreciate life for what it is, I had to sort of ... die unto myself. But that involved a choice--becoming fed up with almost constant depressed state, and so, willing to let myself actually BE so despondent, that only death would seemingly ease the pain. I've known many others since who frequently experience depressed states, but I'm all too aware that for them to break free of such despair, they have to let themselves go. They have to make the choice. They have to get fed up. So, what is there for the awakened one to do? Wait. Don't answer that. I think I get it, now. Carry on.
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Post by enigma on Oct 15, 2012 22:11:06 GMT -5
The whole point is that it's a self created illusion. There's no suffering bug that you can point to and say, 'There it is, crawling across the table top!' You can't objectively find out if you are experiencing a subjective illusion. Understood. However, as a self-created illusion, isn't on the sufferer to see through it? Sure. Right, but for example, what I say becomes a part of your thought process, possibly a part of your undoing. No, it just means the mind has to be undone. Maybe the wording is a bit problematic since we know minds don't do anything. Ultimately, all minds are 'connected'. No thought originates in a separate mind. It's Self talking to Self, though one or both may be operating from within delusion.
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