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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2011 20:03:38 GMT -5
Ha ha. Yes, but its even funnier and stranger than that. That spoonful of mashed potatoes IS you. Literally. There are no real boundaries here. Wherever you look, you are looking at yourself. You are both the looker and the lookee. Ironically, I get this at the scientific level. We're all energy basically. But we're also energy manifested differently in different moments. That spoonful of mashed potatos tasted like a spoonful of mashed potatos.
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Post by enigma on Sept 11, 2011 22:18:31 GMT -5
In your self inquiry, you see objects, and then notice that 'something' sees the objects. Everything that appears, appears to 'something' that doesn't appear, otherwise it would be something else that you see. I'm with ya, sort of. Right now, living this life, it is the one thing that does not come and go. But when I croak I'm guessing that max's awareness will be gone too. And somewhere along the line between fertilization and now awareness started happening. Max doesn't have awareness. Max is an object that you are aware of. There is a body, thoughts, feelings, perceptions, memory that you are aware of. None of these things that you are aware of, has awareness, though in another sense, you could say it IS awareness. You're putting awareness in the category of a local phenomena. Like there could be an awareness hiding in each of those bodies, or maybe even that tree. It's understandable because we have a mechanical notion of life, consciousness and awareness that says dirt can become alive, conscious and aware somehow, though it's not clear how, and it never will be. We think consciousness arises out of matter, when the truth is the opposite; Matter arises from consciousness. Awareness is neither physical nor dependent upon the physical. As such, it is nonlocal. (Not a phenomenon) If it's nonlocal, it's not located somewhere.
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Post by Portto on Sept 11, 2011 22:37:55 GMT -5
Hi Max, I see lots of great answers, starting with Enigma's above.
All the experiences you mention are the awareness that we all are, and there is nothing else outside those experiences. There is nothing real that is solid or stationary. The me vs. potatoes or biological vs. awareness experience is an instantaneous split of reality. There is no biological without awareness and no awareness without biological.
What do you think happens when you touch or see something? Something from outside comes inside?
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Post by enigma on Sept 11, 2011 22:44:56 GMT -5
Hehe. Okay, lets try the dream analogy. Even in that context, you aren't any of the stuff that appears in the dream, you're the mind that it appears TO. The mind, itself, never appears. Is the subject inside the intrepid Vacant dream character, or is it in the fire breathing dragon? It's not IN either one, right? We could say the dreamer is in both (though I wouldn't), or we could say the dreamer is in neither, or we could say the dreamer IS both, but we can't say it is in one dream character as opposed to another. Thanks for being patient folks! Not sure I get this yet. ![:-/](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/undecided.png) The mind never appears during the dream, but when waking up or falling into deep dreamless sleep, the mind could be said to disappear and the dreamstuff stops happening. Isn't that analogous to death? And, entering the dreamstate again, the mind could be said to 'become' again. 'Appear' doesn't really work because there isn't anything for it to appear to. You've gotten right to the heart of the matter. 'Something' is aware that mind comes and goes. Mind is an appearance appearing to YOU, which is why you can talk about it coming and going. If you were mind, you couldn't be aware of mind coming and going. You are even aware that consciousness comes and goes. It's more subtle because without consciousness you don't have a story to tell about this coming and going, but if you were consciousness you would have no sense at all of your own coming and going. Whatever you are watches consciousness come and go. You are aware of that, so what are you? That which is aware that all this stuff that comes and goes, obviously is not coming and going. Awareness never goes, only the objects of awareness. In deep sleep you are FULLY aware. Lets face it, energy and changing forms are separate. This is not oneness. Back to the dream analogy. In the context of the individual mind having a nightly dream, are the mashed potatoes in your dream separate from the mind that is dreaming them?
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Post by enigma on Sept 11, 2011 22:52:51 GMT -5
There is no biological without awareness and no awareness without biological. I wouldn't say awareness is dependent upon form.
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Post by ivory on Sept 11, 2011 22:58:24 GMT -5
And what are some examples of these thoughts that you consider "obsessive" and "based on separation"? Are they not all base on separation? I'm asking because I'm curious which thoughts should dissolve, and which are okay (for lack of a better word).
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Post by enigma on Sept 12, 2011 0:08:29 GMT -5
Most thoughts for the mind identified have an agenda that revolves around personal needs, and these are all problematic. Thoughts that do not circle around the self, assuming there are any, I don't see as problematic. Since all the 'me thoughts' are illusory by definition, they can all be seen through.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 12, 2011 2:16:02 GMT -5
it may be a matter of semantics, but it is not all the same awareness, it is all the same still eternal conciousness...
your awareness is individual...your awareness is your mind...and thoughts happen within your mind.
the shared world of phenomena, i.e. the side walk, are a part of a shared tapestry of thoughts that we all agree to have at the same time in an intimate interwoven tapestry of thoughtmade forms...its all just thoughts....
so their are thoughts we all share that create a shared enviornment, and there are thoughts we dont share that shape our inner reality, and all those thoughts arise from awareness, this is why you can become aware of your awareness of each of the five senses and aware of the awareness of thoughts. from there awareness arises from the stillness, the nonbeing being. This is why the technique "observer the awareness" works for taking you into your still true nature, into nonbeing being, becuase beyond awareness there is nothing but eternal stillness.
When I tell onehandclapping that I am the same who that tied his shoes this morning, and zendancer say he is the same who that looked in the mirror this morning, we are both talking about the infinate silent stillness of conciousness, that which is beyong mind and awareness. The hands tying the shoes and the shoes, and the mirror are all thoughts, those thoughts happen in awareness/mind, and awareness/mind happen in stillness.
there are many techniques for entering the stillness beyond mind/awareness.
thoughts are the waves of the ocean, .......beliefs/mind are the tides, .......awareness force moving the tides, .......eternally still unbeing being is the ocean......A budha is one that not only experiences his ocean nature, but one that experiences it and utterly surrenders him/herself to it.
At the end of the day, the mashed potatoes are only the paradox of eternal stillness that is moving in awareness, that awareness is creating/observing thoughts, those thoughts are manifesting into a beliefs, those beliefs are manifesting ultimately into mashed potatoes lol
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Post by tathagata on Sept 12, 2011 2:25:37 GMT -5
Max please be careful of this kind of thing....if you only engage in this kind of intellectual pursuit without doing the practice to directly experience it for yourself you run the risk of being the victim of your own success...becuase if you focus exclusively on intellectually mastering this you will succeed....but you may succeed at the expense of directly experiencing it brother.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 12, 2011 2:26:36 GMT -5
intellectual understanding is one part not the only part, it can never replace direct intimate experience.
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Post by Portto on Sept 12, 2011 5:16:07 GMT -5
There is no biological without awareness and no awareness without biological. I wouldn't say awareness is dependent upon form. Indeed, they do not depend on each other, but they tend to show up together (aware of something). One exception is samadhi, which is the other end of the confused 'human stick.'
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Post by enigma on Sept 12, 2011 10:06:42 GMT -5
it may be a matter of semantics, but it is not all the same awareness, it is all the same still eternal conciousness... Yeah, I guess I reverse the terms 'awareness' and 'consciousness'. I talk about consciousness as the content of 'the dream' and we see consciousness coming and going. That which is aware that consciousness comes and goes, is awareness. Awareness IS (which is not a quality of awareness. hehe) whether or not there is any content to be 'aware of'. Hencely, it's mind/consciousness that comes and goes in the presence of awareness.
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Post by enigma on Sept 12, 2011 10:11:01 GMT -5
Max please be careful of this kind of thing....if you only engage in this kind of intellectual pursuit without doing the practice to directly experience it for yourself you run the risk of being the victim of your own success...becuase if you focus exclusively on intellectually mastering this you will succeed....but you may succeed at the expense of directly experiencing it brother. I agree that conceptual understanding is not enough, and I'm sure Max realizes that, but directly experiencing it is also not enough. It must be seen/realized, and these realizations usually occur with a mental focus of contemplation.
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Post by therealfake on Sept 12, 2011 11:08:02 GMT -5
And what are some examples of these thoughts that you consider "obsessive" and "based on separation"? Are they not all base on separation? I'm asking because I'm curious which thoughts should dissolve, and which are okay (for lack of a better word). Hey Ivory, The most dominant set of thoughts that block clarity, is the belief that we are a body, we're going to grow old, we're going to get sick, and of course the biggy, that we are going to die. If it is not possible to die, because we were never born, just think what that realization does to all the other problems we 'think' we have in life...hehe Another thought is how we think that we have no control over life. And yet that which we are 'is' the ultimate power in the universe. We never see the grandeur of this life, instead we look at the thoughts of littleness and then we believe them into existence. Peace
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Post by question on Sept 12, 2011 11:28:16 GMT -5
You've gotten right to the heart of the matter. 'Something' is aware that mind comes and goes. Mind is an appearance appearing to YOU, which is why you can talk about it coming and going. If you were mind, you couldn't be aware of mind coming and going. You are even aware that consciousness comes and goes. It's more subtle because without consciousness you don't have a story to tell about this coming and going, but if you were consciousness you would have no sense at all of your own coming and going. Whatever you are watches consciousness come and go. You are aware of that, so what are you? I think that when we say "my mind is coming and going" it's actually mind that is making the assertion. The assertion is made by thinking about memories. Mind doesn't remember what happened in deep sleep but it has a memory of a time before the memory gap occured and so mind has to imagine a story where it went away into sleep and then came back into consciousness. Mind calls it sleep, it could also call it death, but really the most immediate conclusion is that there is simply no memory about what happened in deep sleep. In other words, I don't actually see an awareness that is witnessing the crossing of the threshold between consciousness and deep sleep, and then at the threshold between deep sleep and back to consciousness. The most fundamental conclusion that I am able to come to is about how memory and cognition functions, but from the available evidence (memories, really) I'm not able to make the conclusion that there is an awareness that is being present in deep sleep. Wouldn't you agree that the argument "awareness is witnessing mind come and go, therefore it must be prior to mind and present when mind is not around" does only use memory and logic? I can't verify the argument, because I simply can't see into my own deep sleep or into your head. As far as I can see, trying to explain what happened in deep sleep and what happens in someone else's head is a very similar activity. I don't have subjective knowledge of either. So all I can do is conceptualize and imagine, the answers that I get from this activity don't necessarily say anything worthwile and forever remain speculation and only really ever say more about the limitations of my imagination and cognition than about truth. In other words, I can see how we can get to a point where we can say that the question is silly and then then cease the questioning. But I can't see how we can get to a point where we can confidently say things like "You, me and the chair are the same awareness."
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