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Post by heretic on Jun 25, 2011 12:50:05 GMT -5
So, it's possible that ekstasis was transcended in the state of no-thought, and a merging took place. No breath (as though it had been sucked out of the lungs- it was a real struggle to breathe once again) and falling were the corresponding subtle (the first time- not so much) subjective events in the central nervous system. It still happens on occasion. I'm no longer afraid of it. You call it falling because you 'know' falling conceptually... Interestingly, you didn't consider being pulled, as opposed to falling, in your explanation of that experience. I mean without a reference point and no thought about it, how would you know the difference between falling or being pulled or even flying? Sorry, that's what a moment of silence does... ATTENTION! ATTENTION! ATTENTION!! I did not say I was in silence. I said I had slipped out of silence. I got a peek behind the curtain. It was definitely falling. The pulling takes place with the silent repetition of the mantra, which means- mind vehicle. It's like a tow truck. I can never see who's driving it though (This in no way, shape, or form implies that there is nothing driving it). God forbid we should call it- love. Obviously the discontinuity was interrupted. At that point, it was every man for himself. As for a moment of silence... How can we know what it does or does not do if we aren't aware of it until we leave it? Maybe someone in full-blown moksha can, I dunno. I'm pretty sure that as long as the world exists, and there is a you and I, I won't find out. But I caught a glimpse. I suspect it's not falling at all. It's expansion.
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Post by therealfake on Jun 25, 2011 14:03:56 GMT -5
ATTENTION HERE!!! My bad, heh, I didn't mean you were in silence, I meant that "I" had a moment of silence, which precipitated my analysis of your falling out of silence experience... Communication arts wasn't my best subject...
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Post by heretic on Jun 25, 2011 14:24:19 GMT -5
You do a very good job of communicating. I completely understood what you were posting back at me. I think we'd both have to agree, it's stranger than we can think. I'm pretty certain that's the reason I found this place, to transcend thinking. God revealing God to God.
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Post by heretic on Jun 25, 2011 14:29:43 GMT -5
...A moment of silence makes you think about alternative ways to describe falling? That's unusual. mamza There could be something to what he shared. Let me know what you find out. K?
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Post by therealfake on Jun 25, 2011 14:43:20 GMT -5
You do a very good job of communicating. I completely understood what you were posting back at me. I think we'd both have to agree, it's stranger than we can think. I'm pretty certain that's the reason I found this place, to transcend thinking. God revealing God to God. How true.... It's like when my wife and I play Pictionary with other peeps... I can draw the most ridiculous scribbles and she can look at them and know exactly what I'm trying to communicate... I like that, God revealing God to God, through the game of Pictionary (game of Life)
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Post by teetown on Jun 25, 2011 15:57:31 GMT -5
Then why do the sages say enlightenment is Final? Are you saying that even in a realization, the mind can somehow "hide out" somewhere and come back months or years later? Is the experience you describe below different from the final dropping away that ZD experienced 10(ish?) years ago? I would say a more useful 'noticing' would be the ability to not see what we don't want to see. I see this ability demonstrated every day on these forums and it continues to amaze me. As such, the realization or 'experience' of non-dual awareness is very often not a permanent transformation, which is why we talk about 'abiding non-dual awareness'. We're actually saying mind can return to business as usual even after a clear realization beyond all concepts. One lady I knew referred to this as 'falling off the enlightenment wagon'. After 2 years of freedom, ego came back to play. So how is this possible, that there can be an absolute knowing, and actual freedom from suffering, and yet mind is fully re-engaged as a personal identity? This lady's perception was that she "missed the raunchiness of her self". So we get the sense of something more subtle that retains an interest in the game and simply falls back into it in perfect innocence, with no thought of personal preferences and no particular fear about outcomes. This is actually how the mind/body functions, which is why it can contradict the intentions of the personal identification that is overlaid on top of this spontaneous functioning. Hencely, it becomes more a matter of willingness than practice, understanding, experience or even realization. It seems that the game is over when it's over.
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Post by enigma on Jun 25, 2011 19:50:32 GMT -5
Then why do the sages say enlightenment is Final? Are you saying that even in a realization, the mind can somehow "hide out" somewhere and come back months or years later? Is the experience you describe below different from the final dropping away that ZD experienced 10(ish?) years ago? I'm not really sure. I used to see it as final, but the difficulty is that there isn't someone who transcends mind and gets to stay in some enlightened state. Mind has always been doing it's thang and it continues doing that as long as consciousness is present. IOW, there isn't somebody who says, 'Okay, now I realize Truth and that's that'. I'd be interested in Zen's perspective.
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Post by mamza on Jun 25, 2011 21:43:25 GMT -5
Not to distract from anything, but I have a quick question. Does playing the bass count as ATA? Or is it that you'd just ATA while playing?
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Post by enigma on Jun 26, 2011 1:13:29 GMT -5
I think you would have to wash the bass and put it away. Hehe.
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Post by mamza on Jun 26, 2011 11:47:00 GMT -5
Well, poop. That would've been a really fun way to do it.
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Post by heretic on Jun 26, 2011 12:26:03 GMT -5
You could videotape yourself banging away at your bass and ATA that! ;D
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Post by Portto on Jun 26, 2011 13:20:37 GMT -5
I used to see it as final, but the difficulty is that there isn't someone who transcends mind and gets to stay in some enlightened state. Sometimes it can be final for a certain body/mind (perspective). And of course, the body is not a separate entity that accomplishes something. Mind may continue the same way water continues to flow downhill. But the flow pattern may change if the dams are removed. That phrase gets spoken, and it appears that there's somebody saying it, but that's the illusion, isn't it... The one saying it is not just 'somebody.'
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Post by Portto on Jun 26, 2011 13:25:31 GMT -5
I would say a more useful 'noticing' would be the ability to not see what we don't want to see. Indeed, excellent point! Are you amazed when you see that a child strongly prefers a particular toy versus another?
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Post by enigma on Jun 26, 2011 13:36:50 GMT -5
That phrase gets spoken, and it appears that there's somebody saying it, but that's the illusion, isn't it... The one saying it is not just 'somebody.' Yeah, actually it's just said. And it's not like there is somebody who thinks "OMG, something was just mysteriously said! How the heck did that happen?" Hehe. There's obviously a cognizing function and memories and feelings and the desire to communicate and the enjoyment of life and such, but nobody at the core of it. It happens cause that's how intelligence expresses in form. There's no need to get all personal about it. Hehe.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 26, 2011 18:32:52 GMT -5
Then why do the sages say enlightenment is Final? Are you saying that even in a realization, the mind can somehow "hide out" somewhere and come back months or years later? Is the experience you describe below different from the final dropping away that ZD experienced 10(ish?) years ago? I'm not really sure. I used to see it as final, but the difficulty is that there isn't someone who transcends mind and gets to stay in some enlightened state. Mind has always been doing it's thang and it continues doing that as long as consciousness is present. IOW, there isn't somebody who says, 'Okay, now I realize Truth and that's that'. I'd be interested in Zen's perspective. Yes, I think the idea of "final enlightenment" is an idea with limited usefulness. Any story about the future is still a story, and reality can do whatever it wishes to do. The term "final enlightenment" (or "satori) usually points to a realization of the truth (non-selfhood) so strong that it ends all seeking. It results in non-abidance in the mind, but the mind remains fully functional. For most people the mind is rooted in selfhood and centered upon selfhood. When it is realized that selfhood is a total fiction, the center around which mind previously functioned collapses and that leaves the mind free to operate in emptiness. Hui Neng had a huge enlightenment experience upon hearing these words from the "Platform Sutra:" "Without hindrance let the mind function freely." I never understood what those words were pointing to until after my prior sense of self identity collapsed. Prior to that particular day in 1999 I had been spending a great deal of time ATA and making an effort to limit reflective thought. Afterwards, it no longer mattered whether there was thinking or no-thinking because there was no person involved in any of it. Everything was seen to be part of the same continuum and that continuum no longer had a center. There was no longer any illusion of control. Until the center disappears it is impossible to understand what "not having a center" means. Toward the end of the search the seeking becomes extremely subtle and is not remotely recognized for what it is. Until the one who is seeking is seen-through there is a center around which everything seems to revolve. Only after that center vanishes can Reality clearly see what was going on prior to that event. The Zen path, which is similar to most other paths of non-duality, goes something like this: 1. One learns about mind-talk and begins to watch what the mind is saying/thinking. 2. One practices silent awareness or ATA. In effect one is attempting to control the mind, escape the mind, or become free of the mind. 3. One becomes aware of how awareness shifts back and forth between thoughts and the actual. 4. Many realizations and/or experiences of oneness occur. 5. One tries numerous strategies in various efforts to wake up. 6. Reality/the Universe/THAT realizes that the one who was trying to wake up never existed in any sense. The illusory sense of selfhood vanishes and Reality/the Universe/THAT continues doing whatever it is doing, which is what it was always doing. When the illusion of selfhood vanishes, the universe is content to BE without needing to know anything. There is simply nothing existential that needs to be understood. Selfhood is like standing on a riverbank and watching a river. When selfhood disappears, it is like being the river as it rushes along. We don't know where we're going, and that's okay. The music video, "Enjoy the Ride," that someone posted on here recently, captures the sense of it quite well.
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