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Post by onehandclapping on May 17, 2011 19:42:30 GMT -5
I had a bodily reaction to a thought the other day. I was walking out to my car when a bug came buzzing right in front of my face. I flinched and looked like I was avoiding a bullet flying at my head. It was an entertaining moment for on-looking neighbors as I heard a bit of chuckling coming from their direction.
Anyways, I saw the thought of "fear of this bug flying at my head" pop in my head just before the reaction happened, but was powerless to change the reaction to that thought. That got me pondering if there were any reactions that happen without a thought happening before it?? Or are all reactions, physically and emotionally attached to a thought?? Ideas?
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Post by mamza on May 17, 2011 22:00:34 GMT -5
In my experience thoughts always come after the action. I've also seen some kind of science scanner thingie that showed how peoples' brains make the decision to do something 6 full seconds before the decisions are made. The mind has to reverse-engineer the decision or something or other.
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Post by enigma on May 18, 2011 3:18:13 GMT -5
I see both situations happening. Clearly, you can have the thought to scratch your nose in 10 seconds, and then scratch your nose. The bug situation is different and I'm dubious about the conclusion that a conscious thought preceded the action, though I can't know. For me, those 'knee jerk' reactions happen, and then there's a second or two of mental confusion as to what happened. A good example is a loud noise. I don't detect any sort of a conscious thought preceding the flinch.
As I see it, the mind is like a deep pool of water, and what shows up on the surface (conscious level) is just a small part of the picture. Pre-thought energy (dunno what else to call it) that is strong enough moves directly into action, followed later by conscious thought. Undefined feelings ebb and flow and mix like underwater currents, without being consciously identified (such as anxiety). The underwater stuff even takes the form of a motivating energy that results in denial and projection, in which we don't know what we clearly do know, or do know what we seem to not know.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2011 7:17:05 GMT -5
As I see it, the mind is like a deep pool of water, and what shows up on the surface (conscious level) is just a small part of the picture. Pre-thought energy (dunno what else to call it) that is strong enough moves directly into action, followed later by conscious thought. Undefined feelings ebb and flow and mix like underwater currents, without being consciously identified (such as anxiety). The underwater stuff even takes the form of a motivating energy that results in denial and projection, in which we don't know what we clearly do know, or do know what we seem to not know. that there is primo stuff, thanks. think i'll take a dip: so the identity issue, that happens at the surface? okay all those sensations arising right now -- HVAC rumbling, keys clicking, butt muscles sitting, shimmering toe sensation -- they're all at the surface level. defining consciousness. along with a thought here and there (see text, for example, which represents stuff articulated/verbalized -- a drop in the bucket compared to the thoughts that passed unarticulated -- blah blah). and so, 'looking' at this surface and investigating what's there. that surface isn't there in deep sleep, right? consciousness gone, shut off. in dream sleep, there's some consciousness going on but not some of the other stuff that resides at the surface, like logic/reasoning (maybe sometimes, if lucid). whatever, not my concern right now. enigma, you mention noticing...not much different than ATA or standing on the bank. who's standing on the bank? who's noticing? who's attending the actual? no answer. just standing/looking. just noticing. just attending. that's it. and so there's no one on the bank. there's no bank to stand on and there's no separation at all anywhere. just writing this crap and not really believing it. enough effing said. |
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Post by therealfake on May 18, 2011 10:07:34 GMT -5
That reminds me of a time on a cruise ship in the Caribbean.
Folks were lying around the pool in their beach chairs sun tanning.
After a few hours of baking in the sun, they would get up to go get something to drink or eat.
By this time the deck of the ship had heated up to a nice temperature of which you could fry food on.
My wife and I watched to see how long it would take the unsuspecting barefoot guests to realize their feet were burning.
Although the time it took was very close in duration, it was always preceded by a sudden reaction of their bodies to start jumping around… lol
It was funny as hell seeing them scrambling to resolve the situation by running for the nearest shady area.
It seems to me, that there is a clear physical mechanism that connects the mind and body, and it would have to be the brain and nervous system.
How exactly that works between the physical body and the non physical mind, I have no idea.
It’s also obvious that the body doesn’t need the minds help or interference when it comes to all things that the body is miraculously taking care of.
And often what the body does is a reaction to a stimulus. When your nose itches, the body scratches it. Not because you just want to scratch your nose.
That physical connection is why, it seems a paraplegic can’t will his limbs to move when he has suffered a brain or spinal cord injury.
Or why you can’t make a headache go away by wanting it to.
I know a person who suffers from severe migraines. No matter how much the doctors and family members and he himself wants the pain to go away, it just doesn’t. hehehe.
Of course, maybe they aren’t trying hard enough… ;D
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Post by enigma on May 18, 2011 11:45:29 GMT -5
"and so, 'looking' at this surface and investigating what's there. that surface isn't there in deep sleep, right?"
Right, and the non-dude standing on the bank knows that consciousness is gone. veeeeery interesting.
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Post by enigma on May 18, 2011 12:10:35 GMT -5
"I know a person who suffers from severe migraines. No matter how much the doctors and family members and he himself wants the pain to go away, it just doesn’t. hehehe.
Of course, maybe they aren’t trying hard enough…"
The funny thing about wanting something to go away is that it's the insistence that it's there in the first place, and this is a creative thought. Migrains are a self perpetuating feedback loop. A stimulus, usually some tension in the face or neck, creates some mild pain in the head. The response to the pain is to increase the tension, which increases the pain, which increases the tension until it oscillates out of control and nothing but a powerful pain killer can break the cycle. The desperation (not really a want, so much) to make the pain stop is the resistance that keeps it going long after the original stimulus is gone.
Something that works very well for relatively minor pains is to invite the pain. The more it's invited, the less resistance there is and the less the pain. The pain either stops, or it turns into an odd sort of body sensation that isn't actually painful, it's just noticed by the non-dude on the river bank. Migraines happens when folks fall into the river. There's actually nothing behind the resistance to the pain but a simple body sensation.
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Post by zendancer on May 18, 2011 12:20:47 GMT -5
Yeah, the universe is incredibly intelligent and so is the body, which is one-with it. In non-duality circles "mind" is often considered to be synonymous with verbal linear thought, what we might call "the thought machine." In many Buddhist traditions the word "mind" is used to refer to the infinitely-deep intelligence of the universe, so it includes all of the subterranean stuff.
Like E. I would seriously question the idea that a thought caused the bodily reaction that 1hc described. I have a fairly silent mind, and I often see the body respond to various similar stimuli in the total absence of thoughts, either before or afterwards. The body has an itch and a hand reaches out to scratch it. A bumblebee flies at the face, and the head ducks. These responses are probably muscle memories ingrained from years of past experience.
I think I've told this story before, but several years ago my wife's father gave us a country ham, which we hung on a rail of a garage door track adjacent to where we parked a car. I got out of the car several times and, forgetting the ham was hanging there, banged my head on the ham. After this happened several times, I began to get out of the car with a ducking motion to avoid the d**m ham. Here's the funny part; after we finally gave the ham to someone, and it was no longer hanging in the garage, it took several weeks for the body to learn that it didn't need to duck when getting out of the car! LOL. Carol and I would laugh each time I ducked something that was no longer there. As I remember it, it took about three weeks after the ham was gone before I could get out of the car without the automatic ducking motion. I suspect that dodging a bee is something similar; there is probably a body memory of dodging buzzing bugs that causes the body to respond rather than any verbalized thoughts about the matter.
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Post by therealfake on May 18, 2011 14:54:06 GMT -5
To me, what some folks characterize as creative thought, I would characterize as an irrational belief in a particular thought.
And it seems the cause, is a mind that doesn’t understand its own relationship and connection to the physical body. It doesn’t seem to know how a belief in a thought can positively or negatively affect the body.
What E’s describing is opposite to the placebo effect, where the minds resistance manifests as a disbelief that any treatment is going to result in getting rid of pain.
One also has to look at other factors besides irrational thought, like the mentality of the individual towards their ability to get well and the real possibility of coincidence in the prolonging of ongoing or worsening symptoms.
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Post by Portto on May 18, 2011 16:26:27 GMT -5
You don't even have to be into nonduality to see that there's no separation between mind and body.
Science and medicine look at mind and brain as the same thing. The mind is not some ethereal thing floating around the body, it's the structure of the brain.
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Post by enigma on May 18, 2011 16:28:46 GMT -5
Dang ham! Hehe. That's funny! Some time ago, I was driving home and pulled into a left turn lane. The car to my right suddenly pulled into the turn lane and cut me off, I swerved to the left into oncoming traffic and somehow missed hitting it, then swerved back to the right to somehow miss the oncoming car as well as the first car which was fortunately behind me. The whole process couldn't have taken more than 2 seconds. The lady that was with me said "Jesus, Mario, how the hell did you do that!?" Hehe. Clearly, 'I' didn't, since I was also asking myself the same question. Sometimes ducking those hams can come in handy.  |
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Post by therealfake on May 18, 2011 16:40:40 GMT -5
You don't even have to be into nonduality to see that there's no separation between mind and body. Science and medicine look at mind and brain as the same thing. The mind is not some ethereal thing floating around the body, it's the structure of the brain. Exactly, then why are there so many woo's who believe that when the body drops away and dies, their awareness is still going to be there?...  |
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Post by Portto on May 18, 2011 17:37:58 GMT -5
Something that works very well for relatively minor pains is to invite the pain. The more it's invited, the less resistance there is and the less the pain. The pain either stops, or it turns into an odd sort of body sensation that isn't actually painful, it's just noticed by the non-dude on the river bank. Migraines happens when folks fall into the river. There's actually nothing behind the resistance to the pain but a simple body sensation. Indeed, this works well and it's also very useful in cases of psychological stress. |
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Post by Portto on May 18, 2011 17:42:16 GMT -5
Dang ham! Hehe. That's funny! Some time ago, I was driving home and pulled into a left turn lane. The car to my right suddenly pulled into the turn lane and cut me off, I swerved to the left into oncoming traffic and somehow missed hitting it, then swerved back to the right to somehow miss the oncoming car as well as the first car which was fortunately behind me. The whole process couldn't have taken more than 2 seconds. The lady that was with me said "Jesus, Mario, how the hell did you do that!?" Hehe. Clearly, 'I' didn't, since I was also asking myself the same question. Sometimes ducking those hams can come in handy. Have you considered professional car racing as a career? |
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Post by Portto on May 18, 2011 17:44:56 GMT -5
You don't even have to be into nonduality to see that there's no separation between mind and body. Science and medicine look at mind and brain as the same thing. The mind is not some ethereal thing floating around the body, it's the structure of the brain. Exactly, then why are there so many woo's who believe that when the body drops away and dies, their awareness is still going to be there?... I guess it's because of imagination. Awareness is always going to be here, but it doesn't belong to any single appearance. |
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