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Post by frankshank on Feb 18, 2011 9:13:37 GMT -5
Yes it was, but Max does wield a rather sharp needle. Just remember that compassion and empathy are virtues. It's not as if Michael doesn't dish it out. I thought it fair, funny & nowhere near as harsh as it could have been! As for compassion and empathy don't get too caught up in what's right and wrong!
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Post by Peter on Feb 18, 2011 9:17:42 GMT -5
Just remember that compassion and empathy are virtues. As is humility.
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Post by popee on Feb 18, 2011 9:23:17 GMT -5
Sorry Frank, my comment was mostly directed at Max, I just used your "too funny" reply to start my process.
I don't follow your second sentence. I agree that "right and wrong" thinking can lead to trouble, but I certainly don't think "compassion and empathy" will.
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Post by frankshank on Feb 18, 2011 9:33:55 GMT -5
They're still something to cling to. It's a terrible thing to admit but I struggle to feel compassionate towards human beings. Animals, no problem. Human beings can be so cruel, including me!
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Post by popee on Feb 18, 2011 9:51:31 GMT -5
I know what your saying Frank, I'd rather be in the presence of a pet or a plant, than a typical false drama dwelling human, but that doesn't mean I don't feel compassion for their suffering, even though I usually choose not to interfere.
No, they are not "clung to", they flow through, if allowed. Don't look at the personality, look at the life force. Easier said than done, I know.
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Post by question on Feb 18, 2011 10:11:26 GMT -5
So is that the point then, realize you cant know anything? If that is the point, then perhaps its that realization that shifts your attention away from thought. I was calling it a state simply because there was a period where this was felt / known... Not knowing was an experience. Oh, okay. Maybe look at such experiences as dream versions of stuff that can be seen whenever one looks, and does not come and go. I think one aspect of "not-knowing" is the realization that "existence" (and the crucial "is/isn't" as the operator of binary logic) is an assumption. The problem is that this is realized by sort of reverse engineering the existence-concept with the aid of equivalent concepts that are intuitively known to be virtual. This strategy seems to be necessary because without tweaking language it's really difficult to gain a sufficient distance from concepts and comprehend their structure (atleast I clearly am unable to do so). So now this symbolic representation of "existence" can perform all that the original existence-concept does, but unlike "existence" it doesn't dictate a feeling of certainty/awe and it can be seen that the antinomies that are inherent in the existence-concept aren't godgiven but persist simply because the existence-concept is like a badly written program. At this point it is evident that all knowing in the traditional sense must be imaginary. And yet this understanding doesn't seem to stick or affect the imaginary knowing once we return to ordinary language. I think the reason is that the illusion is inherent to language. Everytime "existence" is uttered, the antinomies and assumptions are uttered with it, not unlike when one utters the word "yellow" its conceptual meaning is exactly yellow and not blue or green. Part of the nature of the existence-concept is to be problematic and it's impossible to imagine an operational alternative to this concept, because this alternative wouldn't signify what "existence" signifies. So I don't see much of a way or reason why this not-knowing would stick permanently, because for it to stick all concepts would have to be fundamentally rewritten, but there isn't much of a reason to do so, because in their context the concepts work just fine. I guess a shorter way of saying all this is that the not-knowing is executed outside the program flow of ordinary language, which is the reason why it doesn't seem to affect it much. I suspect that the true value of such conceptual not-knowing is that some beliefs and activities are noticed to be idiotic, the most prominent being the spiritual seeking. Out of this noticing arises the possibility of the cessation of acting in accordance to those beliefs. What I am uncertain about is what, if anything, the cessation of the search is supposed to initiate. 1) One part of me expects the turning of attention towards the actual like ZD talks about, but that's not really something that I seem to feel drawn to. And this expectation seems similar to the expectation of something extraordinary happening as a result of the cessation of the search, which is most likely a remnant of the "seeking function" trying to turn the cessation to its advantage. 2) Another part expects nothing from it except for the cessation of the search, which seems kinda bleak, because there is nothing to return to or strive towards.
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Post by question on Feb 18, 2011 10:12:07 GMT -5
Hey guys, can we please keep trolling and the feeding of trolls out of this thread? Ivory asked a sincere question and I don't think it's finished yet. There are plenty of dead threads where trolling can be resumed if you feel the need to do so. Thank you.
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Post by michaelsees on Feb 18, 2011 10:52:40 GMT -5
Hey guys, can we please keep trolling and the feeding of trolls out of this thread? Ivory asked a sincere question and I don't think it's finished yet. There are plenty of dead threads where trolling can be resumed if you feel the need to do so. Thank you. Okay you want the truth about Not knowing here it is. Not knowing is a cop out for anyone that does not know the truth. So just say I know that I don't know anything and you will always be fine with 95% of the people. But if you use just a small amount of common sense you will see that many teachers do know the truth. Where do you think the conviction comes from teachers that say I do not exist as a person. Now that is a very bold and crazy statement. It so crazy you will get locked up if you kept shouting this. IT's the dumbest thing ever to say oh the teacher that says this does not know what he says. What do you think these teachers get together and make up these crazy statements or do you think it's possible that some have realize beyond any doubt that there is no one at home. You can just say I don't know and you will be fine. You will not become any closer to the truth but will be widely accepted with the majority. Michael
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Post by zendancer on Feb 18, 2011 11:01:14 GMT -5
Imagine a young child playing in a sand box. The child, from its viewpoint, doesn't know what it is doing, conceptually, because there is no reflective thought. There is no verbal internal monologue describing events or speculating upon anything. There is just ___________-- oneness, emptiness, suchness. From the child's viewpoint (which is not really a viewpoint)there is no self or other, there is no time or space, and there is no thingness. The child, who is totally consumed in its activity, and the activity, and the entire universe are a unified whole doing whatever its doing. The child is happy in its play, but it doesn't know that it is happy.
This is what the phrase "not-knowing" is pointing to, and this is what life can be like when it is lived without intellectual reflection. This is non-abidance in the mind. As an adult, the mind/intellect can be used to perform all kinds of complex calculations, but if there is no attachment to any of the abstractions generated by it, and if the adult is not checking on its state of mind, the adult remains at play in the same way as the child in the sandbox.
This morning the body looks around and sees "what is." There are no images, ideas, or symbols appearing in the mind's eye. There is no internal speech. There is only silent seeing. The see-er and the seen have mutually disappeared. In this mysterious world of oneness everything is clear and self-illuminating. There are no thoughts of "this" or "that. There are no thoughts of "should" or "ought." There are no thoughts of "if" or "maybe." There is no future, past, or present. Wonder of wonders, THIS, alone, is.
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Post by therealfake on Feb 18, 2011 11:41:01 GMT -5
Hey guys, can we please keep trolling and the feeding of trolls out of this thread? Ivory asked a sincere question and I don't think it's finished yet. There are plenty of dead threads where trolling can be resumed if you feel the need to do so. Thank you. Okay you want the truth about Not knowing here it is. Not knowing is a cop out for anyone that does not know the truth. So just say I know that I don't know anything and you will always be fine with 95% of the people. But if you use just a small amount of common sense you will see that many teachers do know the truth. Where do you think the conviction comes from teachers that say I do not exist as a person. Now that is a very bold and crazy statement. It so crazy you will get locked up if you kept shouting this. IT's the dumbest thing ever to say oh the teacher that says this does not know what he says. What do you think these teachers get together and make up these crazy statements or do you think it's possible that some have realize beyond any doubt that there is no one at home. You can just say I don't know and you will be fine. You will not become any closer to the truth but will be widely accepted with the majority. Michael The awakened teacher 'sees' that there is no teacher, no one to know or not know anything. Attributing knowledge to someone that doesn't exist, is self delusion Michael. You can go ahead and forget about anyone who thinks they know or who think they are awakened, including yourself, myself and all selves. Knowing or not knowing is just thought. We cannot 'think' about what we are, we can only experience what we are, as ZD has alluded to...
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Post by sharon on Feb 18, 2011 11:50:02 GMT -5
::: Graffiti speak :::
Seen sprayed painted on an inner city garage door
TRUST NO 1
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Post by michaelsees on Feb 18, 2011 11:54:41 GMT -5
TRF That's the whole problem with neo-advaita which is really all you know on this forum. You can do the truth but it takes effort on your part to get off your butt and do the serious work.
Only clowns would think if they can say something that sounds good and others believe it then it must be true. I suggest that you take a good look at real teachers of Advaita not this superficial ne0-advaita crap that will do nothing for you.
Michael
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Post by therealfake on Feb 18, 2011 12:16:48 GMT -5
TRF That's the whole problem with neo-advaita which is really all you know on this forum. You can do the truth but it takes effort on your part to get off your butt and do the serious work. Only clowns would think if they can say something that sounds good and others believe it then it must be true. I suggest that you take a good look at real teachers of Advaita not this superficial ne0-advaita crap that will do nothing for you. Michael What's neo-advaita and Advaita?
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Post by angela on Feb 18, 2011 13:00:22 GMT -5
oh sharon, i think sometimes you and i should go start a women's only thread. invite karen. stop argument about "what is" and instead be vulnerable and sincere enough to discuss "i have no idea what the hell is going on here, how about you?"
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Post by enigma on Feb 18, 2011 13:02:53 GMT -5
Well, I wasn't really asking you how your life was going (hehe). I was asking you to tell us how things actually are, since Niz seems to have revealed this knowledge to you. Was Niz grinning like a Cheshire cat when he said this? ;D That's quite an imaginative story, and I hope it served whoever he was talking to but I'd say it's not serving you so well right now.
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