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Post by zendancer on Feb 19, 2011 9:49:28 GMT -5
Zendancer: I understand how conceptual not-knowing (as in "seeing that all concepts are illusory" and not necessarily the "seeing of absolute truth") and the simultaneous understanding of concepts don't exclude each other. What I'm concerned with is what implications the seeing of the false as false has. I am concerned because I can see a tendency of attention getting stuck in the reveling of the emptiness of concepts, which seems very dubious, because the seeing of the falseness is itself at least partially conceptual (or is it?). I may have found a clue though. In an earlier post I suspected that the main implication of "conceptual not-knowing" is the cessation of the spiritual search because the search is seen as an idiotic activity. What I overlooked is an obvious implication that is at least as relevant. In the same way that the seeing of the spiritual search as idiotic results in the cessation of the search, the seeing of the believing in false concepts as idiotic equally has to result in the cessation of the belief in concepts, which in effect implies the turning of attention away from beliefs and therefore toward the actual. This would mean that the turning of attention toward the actual doesn't necessarily require any justification and can be a natural result of seeing the false as false. Good post! As for myself, this body/mind never saw the spiritual search as idiotic until the very moment when it was realized that "what is" is all there is and that no separate entity exists within that isness. All sense of separation was seen as a collossal head trip. It was only at that moment that the entire search for truth was seen to have been an activity similar to a dog chasing its own tail. Even then, the search did not appear to have been idiotic in the sense of unnecessary. The search was seen as a logical consequence of oneness becoming attached to thoughts and then deciding (mysteriously) to escape those attachments in an effort to find the truth. Most people accept the common illusion of separateness without question. For them, the world is what it appears to be. Some people, mysteriously, are not satisfied with the usual trance-state, and intuitively sense that "something is rotten in Denmark." Unless they meet a good teacher, or read a good book about non-duality, they set out blindly groping for something, and they don't have any idea what it is. In my case, because I had been such an intense intellectual, it only took a small amount of meditation to realize that I had been living in my head, and that I had been blind to the actual. This realization turned my attention away from thoughts to what I could directly sense through the body. Even then, it took another fifteen years to get free of the mind. The advantages of seeing through all the little everyday illusions are significant even if one never sees through the big illusion of selfhood, and it changes one's life enormously. One ceases to have much concern for the past or future, one takes responsibility for one's actions, one ceases to judge other people, one becomes detached from thoughts, one enjoys watching how "what is" unfolds, one accepts reality as it is, and one develops a strong center (it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or does; one always knows what he/she must do). Fantasies and regrets cease. Everyone is seen to be doing the best they can because they are not in control of what's happening; they are simply a manifestation of what's happening. This makes life a lot simpler and eliminates 90% of the drama that usually keeps people stirred up. One looks around and sees one's own business, other people's business, and God's business. Family and friends become unable to jerk one around with their crazy ideas. LOL. A mother, for example, may have all kinds of expectations for her daughter, but her daughter looks at her compassionately and thinks, "That's your problem, not mine." Sometimes families become extremely uncomfortable when confronted by someone interested in truth, but that's just too bad. LOL! That's life. Little Janie is no longer going to be jerked around by Mommie's endless ideas of how things ought to be. AAR seeing through the crazy ideas that dominate the lives of most adults is very freeing and empowering. This is the practical side of this path. Beyond this point it becomes hard to explain what happens. No one can really appreciate the joy of not-knowing, and what that entails, until one attains non-abidance in the mind. For most people mind is dominant, and it functions much like a prison. The sense of personal selfhood is part of this prison, or maybe its the exterior walls of the prison. AAR, selfhood is a burden, but people are so used to carrying the weight of that burden that they can't imagine what it would be like to be free of it. There is a quote by Nisargadatta in which he describes what it was like to become free of Nisargadatta that comes about as close as one can capture using words. I might sum it up as "Wheeeeeeeeeeee!"
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Post by stepvhen on Feb 19, 2011 10:56:29 GMT -5
yawn
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Post by vacant on Feb 19, 2011 12:16:14 GMT -5
Hi Michael,
do you ever stop and take a good breath? In such moments life sometimes shows that our approach has not been serving us well enough, and correction is needed. And that's cool.
Why be so determined to place old school advaita on a pedestal and judge neo-advaita as inferior? Why estimate that these guys here are more neo than old school? Screw advaita, old school and neo. Isn't truth calling? Isn't freedom tickling and those shackles hurting?
Your brother.
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Post by therealfake on Feb 19, 2011 12:58:03 GMT -5
Folks can't stop 'thinking' that they're real...
...including me!!!
Mainly because we can't get 'outside' of thinking, or the mind and if we did, the mind wouldn't be there, to know that it got outside the mind...
What we think is real is the mind thinking that it's real and that illusion wants to be there when we discover that we are 'not' the mind thinking that we are real...
...actually forget it, this is just another thought LOL
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Post by enigma on Feb 19, 2011 13:03:47 GMT -5
I think its past the counselling stage. Take him to the padded cell and let him take his tv with him! It's all pretty squirrely, but there are so many nuts to crack!
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Post by enigma on Feb 19, 2011 13:11:32 GMT -5
Zen's post is an excellent description of the benefits of effective spiritual practice. This is what I call becoming conscious, and it's really the only focus a 'person' can have. The rest happens by itself, or not.
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Post by michaelsees on Feb 19, 2011 16:13:38 GMT -5
ZD excellent post and it's true that any effective spiritual practice will take care of the 90%. born-Christians, Buddhists, TM,meditation all of these allow you to live a more comfortable life. The problem with noduality and anyone that is not invested in neo-advaita can plainly see is neo-advaita puts the cart miles ahead of the horse. It simple does not work but yet folks get on the path defend it with their life example how they will bounce back from what I post with vigor.
There are reasons I post as I do. Part of it has to do with the Chaos theory and the other to see how much people are stuck in their reactive mind. So far ZD, Karen, and a few more are the only one's here that has passed this test with flying colors. The rest only want to make me wrong and them right by defending what they have been led to believe is so.
I never came here to be Mr. Popular or just to play with members(though it's easy and tempting to do so) what I came here help sincere folks to get out of this mind created ditch they are in even if they cannot see it and get material for a book.
This has never been about right or wrong if you noticed I have been on both sides at the same time. But most cannot even see this as they are so bent and giving it to me. Now to be fair I have certainly made myself very well baited and it has worked well even with senior members.
So why do this to begin with? People here seekers are stuck it's not their fault it's really all the neo-advaita stuff they have been reading. Winston Churchill once said if you tell a lie long enough people will believe it's true, wise words. So now everyone that felt the need to keep posting about me knows they have work to do and neo-advaita has not helped them in the least. Even a first year Zen student would know not to keep posting back to me as they would clearly see it's just the reactive mind in play. So now you know who you are. My suggestion is to throw out every book you have on these nonduality neo-advaita teachers also the ones I have posted for you. Once you done that all that is really needed is to find the time each day to be still and quiet. I would even suggest to burn your books make a ritual around this which will help your mind to purge. It's my opinion that so many more folks would be "awaken" if they never heard of nonduality and just remained still and quiet with a burning desire for the truth. It's sad to live here in the US. Did you know the US has more folks in debt on credit than any other country. Did you ever ask yourself why? I will tell you it's because in the US you have been train to receive anything you want without paying for it. People here love to get something free so they make it free by putting it on credit this way they can have what they want the moment a thought comes in that they want it. This behavior of course transfers nicely to spiritual seekers. The want the new car, the new house the ultimate realization with absolutely no effort on their part. But you can never cheat "spirit" in fact spirit will not let you go bankrupt but it will keep the desire to know the truth strong within you.
The bottom line is to give all this stuff up and do your work(being quiet and still) Don't share your experiences with others keep them for you. Above all don't react to what anyone else believes and wants you to believe. I would even say to guard your own experiences like real gems. In a few months after whatever experience you may have had it will be gone anyhow.
ZD has told you in truth what happens when you have finally released the mind I quote "As for myself, this body/mind never saw the spiritual search as idiotic until the very moment when it was realized that "what is" is all there is and that no separate entity exists within that isness"
This is exactly what happens, you will find that the truth that you have so much desire to obtain has been right there for you to see your entire life. It could not have been closer. In fact I would dare to say it was always too close to see. People that need reading glasses know what I mean. If you put a book too close to your eyes you cannot see the words.
Well I am done here for now I really want the best for all of you as Karen correctly mentioned"remember you are the only one here" So let this be my goodbye for now.
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" But the correct meaning is below "The journey of a thousand miles begins beneath one's feet." Rather than emphasizing the first step, Lau Tzu regarded action as something that arises naturally from stillness. or if you will "Even the longest journey must begin where you stand."
So be still and let no one take your journey from you . It has been my great pleasure to know each of you yes even "Stephen"
I am hoping to get my first book out by the end of this year. The working title is "The Right Stuff " a book about investigation/debunking this phenomena of the Now-ness movement and instant awakening as told by a seeker. The main focus of the book will be the "teachers" of the neo-advaita movement and how they have made a billion dollar plus year business by deception. That's correct if you take the 246 current teachers their total income is over 1 billion per year with Tolle making up a good part of it. It's really time for a book like this. Hope to be first.
When the book is finished I plan to have a ebook version that will be free and I will post the link for you.
'The foolish man seeks happiness in the distance, the wise grows it under his feet.'
Randy Michaels Muscarella
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2011 16:38:46 GMT -5
randy,
keep it real.
mdp
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Post by frankshank on Feb 19, 2011 17:01:15 GMT -5
Michael: Despite my digs I think you're a good guy and I wish you well with your book and life in general. Take care!
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Post by therealfake on Feb 19, 2011 17:09:43 GMT -5
Hey Micheal, It's not going to be a very long book, if all's a person has to do is sit and be quiet... Who would have thought, all those books, cd's, you-tube videos and satsangs, I wasted my time on... Anyway, wish you luck! TRF
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Post by enigma on Feb 19, 2011 23:22:12 GMT -5
"Even a first year Zen student would know not to keep posting back to me as they would clearly see it's just the reactive mind in play. So now you know who you are."
The reason you are engaged here is that it's not so much about Truth realization as it is becoming conscious. It's most likely that the interaction is not particularly useful to the unconscious one, but those who are interested can see the process at work and this IS potentially useful. This most recent solution to the dilemma you've found yourself in is highly 'dishonest' (to borrow the term from another poster). I mentioned today to someone here that I appreciate the devotion to Truth shown by many of our members. It seems in this case Michael is deeply devoted to Michael.
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Post by sharon on Feb 20, 2011 2:58:45 GMT -5
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Post by sharon on Feb 20, 2011 4:43:18 GMT -5
In fact lets push this nonsense a little further ...
Could this be the reason that he didn't appear to be hearing anything anybody else was saying on this board ... The sight of his own book was in the way of the words in front of his face ... ?
'The foolish man seeks happiness in the distance, the wise grows it under his feet.'
Yup ~ send a draft of the book to Wisefool Press and let Jed McKenna do a review. If he says, it isn't written by an ego, then I'll read it ...
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Post by zendancer on Feb 20, 2011 9:13:23 GMT -5
Michael's book aside, I think this reviewer of Waite's through-the-jungle book makes the most pertinent points about this entire issue:
"I have read most of the books by Dennis Waite and on the whole have found them to be quite informative and well written. Though Dennis is clearly knowledgeable about the Advaita Vedanta tradition, I feel that with "Enlightenment: the Path through the Jungle" he has revealed his lack of breadth regarding other approaches to nonduality.
A few main points:
Firstly, the term Neo Advaita. None of the communicators who have been given this label wish to be associated with it (as far as I know.) Since they do not acknowledge the category, its construction and subsequent dismissal as a teaching that falls short of traditional Advaita Vedanta methods seems totally unreasonable. These direct communicators have never set themselves up as being some sort of new movement of traditional Vedanta.
Secondly, this type of direct pointing is in no way exclusive to the new wave of satsang teachers. It can be found in a wide range of communications from Huang Po to Longchenpa, from Alan Watts to Wei Wu Wei, Krishnamurti to Sailor Bob and so on. And of course, direct pointing can be found in the work of Ramana, Nisargadatta and Krishna Menon (not to mention: Rumi, Lao Tzu, the Hsin Hsin Ming, the Avadhut Gita, etc... etc...)
Thirdly, the central inference of this book is that "enlightenment" is less likely from exposure to 'neo/satsang' communication than from traditional progressive methods. [Blatant nondual incorrectness aside] there is absolutely no evidence that a progressive time bound method would have any such advantage. It is not unreasonable to claim that there may be some apparent benefits to a progressive teaching, particularly in the context of providing a stable framework to allow a student to assimilate the teaching at an intellectual level (thus producing a more psychologically balanced experience over a greater span of time.) Yet there can also be problems with this (despite the counter claims.) It could actually act as an obstacle as the student becomes somewhat seduced by the trappings and `culture' of Advaita resulting in an enhanced sense of a 'self with advanced capabilities'.
"Enlightenment: the Path through the Jungle" makes some well observed points (especially regarding confusion generated by failure to distinguish between empirical and absolute truths) and Dennis is on firm ground with his knowledge of Vedanta. But the failure to truly acknowledge and appreciate that there are powerful and valid approaches to nondualism other than traditional Advaita, ultimately makes this book a one-sided and unsatisfying read." _____________________________________________
The term "neo-Advaita" is commonly used as a straw man by people who are attached to the idea that long years of "spiritual work" is somehow more important than methods that might produce faster results. If someone developed a method of waking people up in five minutes, I suppose that would make the traditionalists even angrier because they are so invested in the idea that enlightenment should take years of effort.
I suspect that Tolle generates jealousy in many people because his books and CD's have been so successful, but his writings, through the power of mass media, have probably exposed more people to non-duality, and led to more awakenings, than any other person in human history. Ironically, he does not propose any sort of "instant" methodology, but regards waking up as a mystery that has no direct connection with the amount of time it might take in any particular person's life.
One has to ask why anyone would object to fast awakening if awakening is the professed goal. Nisargadatta supposedly woke up after following his guru's advice for three years. Does this mean that he didn't invest enough time? Maybe he should have studied for another ten years! LOL. The Buddha was a real laggard compared to Nis; it took him six years, but I guess we should cut him some slack because he didn't have any teachings to follow.
I have personally seen the effects upon seekers who get attached to the idea that spiritual merit must be accumulated gradually over time by doing "hard spiritual work"; most of them are still seeking!
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Post by sharon on Feb 20, 2011 10:29:50 GMT -5
Yes although a mystery, from my perspective there are patterns worth considering. For example a 20-something year old, may naturally take less time than a 40-something year old, to assimilate all that is necessary for completion, as there will be less layers of worldly interference to get inside of. A mind that is more pliable and open to investigating what nowness is really talking about, is critical and [crucial].
It also appears rationally minded, to allow the comprehensible idea, that future generations will not associate with the world as we have done.
Edit ~ [ ]
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