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Post by michaelsees on Dec 25, 2010 12:08:45 GMT -5
Hi Angela,
In a way you answered your own question when you wrote this "but the sense now that there is this Seeing here,"
I find this to me much more of a sense than actual seeing. e for example intuition . How does one "see" intuition? It's felt more than seen is it not? In acts of seeing the brain is engaged and it may use the raw senses of the eyes or mental pictures but with intuition it's more refined and does not need a brain to work. Anyhow this is how I SEE it to be.
Michael
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Post by enigma on Dec 25, 2010 13:22:33 GMT -5
Hi Angela Interesting, so you see that the seeing is nonlocal and infinite, and yet somehow there is a localized world that seems separate from the spaciousness in which the seeing is? I'm trying to see how local stuff escapes infinity, of how there can be separation without a perceived reference point.
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Post by enigma on Dec 25, 2010 14:05:16 GMT -5
There's the sense of existence, which comes automagically with consciousness, and some refer to as 'I Am'. That's a felt sense, but the idea 'I am separate' is a thought. I don't see how there can be a felt sense of separation without the thought being believed to some degree. The stuff appearing is appearing 'here', not 'there'. The idea of 'out there' is also a thought. It is not your actual experience.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 25, 2010 14:18:29 GMT -5
As I was trying to convey to Angela the "sense" part of this should not be overlooked and it's not a play with words. The felt part goes far deeper than any thought. It comes from the Absolute itself. However like anything you need to experience this on your own for the words to make real sense.
Michael
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Post by zendancer on Dec 25, 2010 15:03:52 GMT -5
Angela: I suspect that your hunch is correct. You probably now have your feet in two worlds, so to speak, and some of the old thought structures supporting the sense of "Angela" still remain. Several people have written about "open vision" and the altered sense of "seeing" that accompanies and follows kensho-like experiences. I think Bernadette Roberts has written about this, but the account I remember most vividly was that of Flora Courtois. Here are some excerpts from her writing. You can judge how they relate to your experiences:
(The following was written about an experience that happened a few weeks before her first kensho experience while she was attending college) "Sitting in my seat in class one midwinter morning, gazing straight ahead, I suddenly became aware of space in an extraordinary manner; that is, I was equally aware of it behind me, underneath, above, all around and in fact, it seemed to be all through me. This so astounded me that I held my eyes wide open and my breath still for fear of losing this incredible experience. This was too much for the visiting professor who brought his lecture to a full stop, leaned over the lectern, and asked me if something he had said had unduly surprised me. I blinked, breathed, replied 'No, sir,: and returned to history. But now I knew something extraordinary was very close and I felt exhilarated and hopeful."
A few weeks later, she had a big kensho experience, and was propelled into what she called "the numinous void." Her life then became egoless, effortless, and joyful, and all kinds of changes occurred in her daily interactions with others and the world around her. She spends several pages describing all of this and then writes:
"But of all the changes that had occurred, the one that seemed to me in some mysterious way to be the key to everything else was the change in vision. It was as if some inner eye, some ancient center of awareness, which extended equally and all at once in all directions without limit and which had been there all along had been restored. This inner vision seemed to be anchored in infinity in a way that was detached from immediate sight and yet at the same time had a profound effect upon sight. Walking along the street I was aware of the street flowing past and beneath me, the trees or buildings moving past all around and the sky moving above as if I were immersed in one flowing whole. A childlike UNknowing pervaded perception. The immediate world had acquired a new depth and clarity of color and form, an unalloyed freshness and unexpectedness. Rooted in the present, every moment opened to eternity. Along with this, there was a sharp single-pointedness to the focus of attention which caused me to feel that I was looking straight and deeply into whatever held my attention. Yet paradoxically I felt blind. This is difficult to describe. It was as if my attention were now rooted in some deeper center so that my everyday sight, my eyes, released from their former tension to reach out and see the world outside, were now as free as if they had been blanked out, eliminated altogether."
Courtois eventually got used to interacting with the world in this manner and it gradually became "normal." She knew nothing about enlightenment (she had never heard of it), but she lived in what many of us would consider an enlightened state for many years. What makes her story most interesting, IMO, is what happened to her later on. At some point, after marriage, travel, children, etc. she went back to graduate school, got very busy, and became very reflective. Ego reappeared and her enlightenment dissipated. She began to feel that she had lost something incredibly precious and had squandered a priceless gift. This led her to start searching for what she felt she had lost. I encountered her long after she had joined a Zen group in California, and we had many phone conversations and exchanged many letters. I do not think that she ever regained the effortless ease of being that characterized her life following her college enlightenment experience.
Angela, I suspect that eventually the eroded structures of thought that now conjure some sense of separation will eventually burn away, fall away, collapse, whatever, and that "ancient center of awareness" that Courtois wrote about will be all that remains. IOW, there will probably be a coalescing of experience into non-reflectiveness that manifests "just like this." At the moment there is probably still some vestigal reflecting function of mind that hasn't yet died away. I think Bernadette Roberts wrote about that aspect of the path in her first book, "A Path to No-Self." If you're interested, you could check out her account.
AAR, this trip is more about enjoying the ride than gaining a reflective understanding of it. Cheers.
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Post by enigma on Dec 25, 2010 15:42:40 GMT -5
As I was trying to convey to Angela the "sense" part of this should not be overlooked and it's not a play with words. The felt part goes far deeper than any thought. It comes from the Absolute itself. However like anything you need to experience this on your own for the words to make real sense. Michael There's also a felt sense of separation, and I don't believe this goes deeper than thought or comes from the Absolute itself.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 25, 2010 17:25:08 GMT -5
well here's the thing what you believe or I or anyone means shit. What we may realize is quite a different matte
Michel
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Post by enigma on Dec 25, 2010 18:24:49 GMT -5
I'm talking about what I perceive Angela to be saying. What we 'believe' about that is highly relevant to the discussion.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 25, 2010 19:21:26 GMT -5
You may "believe" it is but in truth it means nothing. All beliefs are extremely conditional and change in each moment. They are foundations of nothing and do not mean anything. For this reason they cannot be at all constructive because in the next moment, min or hour your belief on anything can change.
I found only a very very small meaningful things in the world which are Attention, perception and feelings beyond that I see nothing useful to keep moving
Peace Michael
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Post by angela on Dec 25, 2010 20:24:33 GMT -5
i deleted my posts because the degeneration of the discussion is, well, i was going to say troubling. but honestly, it's boring. thanks guys. i got what i needed, my next step. more than you can imagine. i'm going to let the thread die now.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 25, 2010 20:53:20 GMT -5
Good for you Angela and much success on your journey. It's good to remember what a very old teacher told me once. Never look back and keep on going.. - Michael
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Post by enigma on Dec 25, 2010 22:48:03 GMT -5
You may "believe" it is but in truth it means nothing. All beliefs are extremely conditional and change in each moment. They are foundations of nothing and do not mean anything. For this reason they cannot be at all constructive because in the next moment, min or hour your belief on anything can change. I found only a very very small meaningful things in the world which are Attention, perception and feelings beyond that I see nothing useful to keep moving Peace Michael If there is such a thing as neo-advaita, that's it.
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Post by enigma on Dec 25, 2010 22:55:55 GMT -5
i deleted my posts because the degeneration of the discussion is, well, i was going to say troubling. but honestly, it's boring. thanks guys. i got what i needed, my next step. more than you can imagine. i'm going to let the thread die now. Apparently, you hold the belief that you personally own this thread and are free to turn a degenerated thread into an utter nonsense thread that now makes no sense to anybody. However, it does appear that insanity has struck. Hehe.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 25, 2010 23:01:58 GMT -5
I am surprise at you. Those words are from Nis himself (paraphrase by me)and I would never place him in the Neo-Advaita group would you? Michael You may "believe" it is but in truth it means nothing. All beliefs are extremely conditional and change in each moment. They are foundations of nothing and do not mean anything. For this reason they cannot be at all constructive because in the next moment, min or hour your belief on anything can change. I found only a very very small meaningful things in the world which are Attention, perception and feelings beyond that I see nothing useful to keep moving Peace Michael If there is such a thing as neo-advaita, that's it.
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Post by enigma on Dec 25, 2010 23:22:33 GMT -5
I am surprise at you. Those words are from Nis himself (paraphrase by me)and I would never place him in the Neo-Advaita group would you? Michael Naw, I don't think Niz would have said 'It doesn't matter if I understand what you're asking me cause that understanding would just be a meaningless belief, so I'll respond to what I imagine you mean and pretend that's not a belief.' (If you're confused as to what we've been talking about, you can review the degenerated thread.) My understanding of the derogatory term 'neo-advaita' is a pointer to Truth, inappropriately applied. Beliefs are contextually limited and therefore problematic in terms of Truth realization, but it's okay to believe your wife's birthday is coming up next week (At least I believe your wife would believe so).
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