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Post by mamza on Dec 19, 2010 20:48:01 GMT -5
So here's the how I'm seeing things: When I look around, I see the things around me. I see the monitor, I see the hands typing the words, hear the sound of the keys, and in the moment I'm doing so, I can see that there is no me (so I believe...something tells me otherwise). There is a body doing what it's doing, a mind thinking what it thinks when the thoughts arise, and nowhere in this picture do I see me.
My problem is that I still somehow believe that "I" have a problem. Something doesn't seem right, and rightly so--*I* am seeing that 'I' am seeing no I (if that makes sense).
Now when I go outside, I see/feel on an unusually subtle 'grand scale.' Sort of like looking at a landscape and becoming it. The only way I can describe this is like I'm a painting. There's a subject of 'I' experiencing something, and outside of that I is the experience of the experience, which would be the painting in its entirety. I feel like the painting when I step outside.
But when I'm inside, it's much more difficult to maintain this being. Things are 'mine,' and the smaller space leaves me feeling like the only thing around is me, even though there's much more. I feel like I'm on the right track, but noticing the fact that I'm feeling this way proves to me that I'm not because in actuality there is no me to feel that way.
So how do I get past that? The awareness of a constant referral to I is there, but the understanding of what that means seems to elude me. Saying to myself, "There is no I" can keep me in the moment instead of my thoughts, but it seems to be a sort of distraction somehow. Like I'm repeatedly showing myself something and not realizing it. Anyone got a 'pointer'?
P.S. - There's nothing 'wrong' with this...I just didn't know how to phrase the title.
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Post by therealfake on Dec 19, 2010 21:33:29 GMT -5
Hi Mamza,
Try this, which on the outset seems strange and well, it might send you to the funny farm, but it might also give you a new perspective.
Look around when your at the computer and like in a Twilight Zone movie, believe that there is nothing outside your immediate perception, no upstairs, no downstairs and most importantly, no world outside the house or apartment you are in.
In fact, since were told we don't really exist, we don't really know if there is a world outside our immediate perception anyway.
Were told we live in a world of thought and as we seemingly move around our thought world, it is being instantaneously created for us.
When your outside, notice that you can't see anything behind you and can only see about 50 to 60 percent of the world in front of you.
If you believe your only looking at a facade of the world and there is nothing behind it, you'll gain a new feeling for what you do perceive.
It also limits the world, to your immediate perception and gives you a more condensed feeling of just being a perceiver.
Told you it's strange, but it does present a rather unique perspective.
TRF
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 19, 2010 22:20:50 GMT -5
Hi Mamza, Try Scuba diving that really closes in your sight! Maybe you have nothing to get pass? Do you need to even acknowledge that there is a "I" maybe or maybe not. Sometimes just being present with what is will shift intention from the "eye" Anyhow it sounds great that these things are coming up for you. Michael So how do I get past that? The awareness of a constant referral to I is there, but the understanding of what that means seems to elude me. .
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Post by zendancer on Dec 19, 2010 23:04:47 GMT -5
Mamza: Yep, like Michael, I think what's going on in your world is great.
You wrote, "So how do I get past that? The awareness of a constant referral to I is there, but the understanding of what that means seems to elude me. Saying to myself, "There is no I" can keep me in the moment instead of my thoughts, but it seems to be a sort of distraction somehow. Like I'm repeatedly showing myself something and not realizing it. Anyone got a 'pointer'?"
Well, there are two ways of dealing with this issue, but both ways have the same result. You can either take Nisargadatta's approach, and stay with the sense of "I am," which cuts off the mind, or you can stop the constant referral to selfhood by focusing on the actual, which also cuts off the mind. Either way, if the mind gets cut off, sooner or later the residual effects of dualistic thinking fall away and the truth becomes obvious.
Ironically, what you are calling a "distraction" is just the opposite. The distraction is the idea of selfhood, itself, and staying present only seems like a distraction because the mind is still trying to understand what's going on. In fact, in the moments when you are present, you ARE showing yourself something significant (that there is only oneness), but the mind keeps trying to co-opt what's happening by reflecting upon it. My advice would be to keep doing what you're already doing--looking and questioning. The fact that you're staying present and thought-free part of the time shows that you're headed in the right direction.
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iris
New Member
Posts: 31
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Post by iris on Dec 19, 2010 23:36:02 GMT -5
So how do I get past that? The awareness of a constant referral to I is there, but the understanding of what that means seems to elude me. Saying to myself, "There is no I" can keep me in the moment instead of my thoughts, but it seems to be a sort of distraction somehow. Like I'm repeatedly showing myself something and not realizing it. Anyone got a 'pointer'? You can realize it. I've heard some say they realized it simply being mindful. If you pay attention, you will see that thoughts simply arise. That there is no thinker. This was some years ago but I worked it out more logically. I had a hunch that "I" wasn't real so I thought, "How did 'I' come to believe that 'I' was real?" I thought about it until it eventually clicked. When you get an insight into no-self you will feel a slight energetic shift. This is actually quite easy to do and IMO is well worth the time as your persepctive will change.
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Post by mamza on Dec 19, 2010 23:57:46 GMT -5
Thanks for all the replies, everyone. I'll try a mix of what I've been doing and throw in what Iris and ZD mentioned to see if anything goes differently. Also, ZD, your link seems to go to this thread. I'm not sure if that was intentional or not, so I figured I'd mention it. While that sounds completely awesome on multiple levels, it's also kind of expensive where I live. Plus it's something like 20 degrees right now, haha. Maybe I should just strap the goggles on and walk around town breathing through a snorkeling tube.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 20, 2010 0:24:35 GMT -5
Mamza: Yeah, I don't know how that link got there. I must have accidentally hit a key that did that. As I said earlier, I'm a Luddite, so I have a good excuse. LOL.
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Post by mamza on Dec 21, 2010 19:53:12 GMT -5
So today I decided to stop wondering about this stuff and start looking at it more. I've accumulated a decent amount of intellectual knowledge on the subject and it's time to put it to use. Maybe two times today, for maybe half of a second each, it seemed like the world went 2D. The sky looked painted on, and my peripheral vision was unusually clear. If I were to hold my hand up to my field of vision in this moment, it would seem like my hand were in the sky itself. It lost the 'layered' feeling and formed more of a cartoon-ish, simple nature.
In these two moments, I could clearly distinguish what was going on around me. The rest of the time I spent trying to will it into being left me with a very limited view of the world. I would not notice things, hear things, see things directly in front of me because I was so fixated on a single position in my vision.
It's an awful lot like one of those deals where you look at a vertical line that's next to, but separate from, a horizontal line and cross your eyes slightly to make the two overlap. When you do this it's hard to see both lines at once because one brain hemisphere is more dominant, but when you get it just right it's like there's only a plus sign there.
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Post by therealfake on Dec 22, 2010 17:10:52 GMT -5
So, what's it like living in the moment?
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Post by Peter on Dec 23, 2010 3:36:33 GMT -5
It depends on the moment.
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Post by therealfake on Dec 23, 2010 12:45:54 GMT -5
Yes,
If you identify with what's happening, it's different for everyone.
If you identify with what you are, the now, it doesn't matter what is happening.
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Post by enigma on Dec 23, 2010 22:50:23 GMT -5
It's the identification that makes it matter, which is why asking what it's like living in the moment has no answer in the moment.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 23, 2010 23:07:22 GMT -5
It's the identification that makes it matter, which is why asking what it's like living in the moment has no answer in the moment. Well, not to us Zen characters. LOL. We always have an answer for every sort of question. If someone asked me what it's like living in the moment, I would instantly respond with, "Would you like a cup of tea?" This is what its like living in the moment. Ha ha.
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Post by enigma on Dec 24, 2010 0:35:42 GMT -5
Are you sure that's how you would respond?
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Post by zendancer on Dec 24, 2010 8:28:38 GMT -5
Are you sure that's how you would respond? LOL! No, you clever devil. It would depend upon the context. That was just an example. "Would you like a cup of tea?" is a standard kind of response used in a zendo because tea is often served there. The specific words would arise instantly in the moment but be non-reflective. For example, if I were shopping for Christmas gifts and the person with me asked that question, I might say, "Is there anything else you need to buy?" or "Do you need to get your gifts wrapped before we leave this store?" The answer would arise from whatever is actually happening in the moment. The answer would also depend upon the level from which the question arose. The above answers would be typical answers given to someone who truly didn't know what it is like living in the moment--someone who is still stuck in a reflective mode of mind. However, if a Zen Master asked another Zen Master that question, the answer would be totally different, because it would be perceived as an existential challenge rather than an honest inquiry. ZM 2 would say something like, "Someone should wash out your mouth with soap and water," (for trying to goad me into saying anything that might contain even a whiff of showing off in it--like, look at me; I'm living in the moment). Alternatively, ZM 2 might say, "It can't be spoken of" (because by the time it is spoken of the moment has already passed.) It is the understanding contained in the last answer, above, that was the point of your post, but there were so many potential levels to the issue, that I had to have a bit of fun. I simply couldn't stop myself. Ha ha. Of course, if YOU asked me that question, knowing that you know that I know you know what I know, I would have to answer with a physical action rather than words. What a world! What a funhouse!
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