how close are you?

[zendancer]

Nov 18, 2010 21:28:06 GMT -5 @cabinintheforest said:

How close are you to the truth?

We are all truth seekers who visit this forum.

The problem that i have noticed really with "nonduality" which most people seem to talk about on this forum is that people who seem to embrace nonduality or teach it seem to think they know the absolute truth. People are saying "Non duality" is correct and everything else is wrong.

No human being alive knows the whole truth. There is not one human alive today who knows everything. We can grow closer to truth, but we can not know everything.

I do not buy books from "nondual teachers" becuase these people say they know everything. They seem to think they have worked it all out.

Let me just say the universe is a very mysterious place.

Too many people claim they know everything.

I've never encountered a teacher who claimed to know everything. All of the teachers I've encountered have said that the most important thing is not-knowing. The biggest laughter BETWEEN teachers revolves around how little they know. Teachers howl with laughter at how stupid they are, as if to say, "No matter how stupid you are, I'm more stupid!" LOL cubed!

[louij]

Dont over think..... be.... allow.... it all comes through differently for every seeker, your information may have nothing to do with how i am evolving.......

all the teachers, and there have been many, in my life came with a gift....... you can either receiver and pass on this gift, or you can question and debate the grace.

grace is grace.... truth flows only out from you, that is the only truth that matters most, do no harm... be warm... embrace and offer love.

[michaelsees]

I very much hear what you are saying.
This is a real and big problem with neo-advaita. The real truth is very few on this path are truly awaken. The rest of them simply have a poor understanding of advaita , maybe had a few glimpses of something like the world stopping, realizing there is no you as you have been identifying with etc. But this is not truly awakening all it is is a experience of the shell of what is. But because their ego is so well hidden from them they profess they are awake and give their experience as proof. I have had all those experiences and then some and I can say without a doubt there is a lot more before you are fully awaken. You see most people are only awake intellectually with maybe a few experiences so they believe they have arrived.

If it was that easy half of the world would be awake.
So best to take whatever you read or hear in neo-advaita with a large lump of salt.

cheers
Michael

Nov 18, 2010 21:28:06 GMT -5 @cabinintheforest said:

Too many people claim they know everything.

[enigma]

The neo-advaita comments tend to get my attention since it seems like it has become a bucket in which folks can throw whatever they don't like about nonduality (or teachers, or students or mushrooms or whatever). Here it's implied that everything is claimed to be known by such teachers, and elsewhere the complaint is that it's nihilistic and oversimplified in the teaching that there is nothing to know and you already are what you seek.

As to the OP, if your were to actually read one of those books you're critiquing, you might find that it's not about knowledge at all and that you already know way too much and this is the whole problem.

[question]

Nov 18, 2010 22:42:34 GMT -5 zendancer said:

I've never encountered a teacher who claimed to know everything. All of the teachers I've encountered have said that the most important thing is not-knowing. The biggest laughter BETWEEN teachers revolves around how little they know. Teachers howl with laughter at how stupid they are, as if to say, "No matter how stupid you are, I'm more stupid!" LOL cubed!

Haha, gives a whole new meaning to Einstein's aphorism of: ""Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

[michaelsees]

Good points especially the one below. I have been a longtime follower
of neo-advaita. I wonder how many people know that a very good majority of these teachers are in for the money and are as far from awakening as a snow rabbit is from a Florida swamp.
When they still had them I went to every conference on non-duality put on by inner traditions normally near SanDiego CA.

To some it up around 90% of the speakers fell into the how can I promote myself and make money. There were the folks that had one or 2 experiences and presto they are awaken and then they go out and teach the stuff that they have no realization of the actual subject. This is where you get the complaint you wrote. It's found on solid fact these snake oil salesman masking as awaken beings are the reason. I heard story after story and all stories were exactly the same with changes only in the drama like a near death experience, car cash, sitting by my window looking at a bird and the world stopped etc. Please give it up these experiences can be had by the simply being still for a few mins.

Now to be fair there were a few that I saw as real awaken beings.
Thomas Harding (without a head) was one who I had lunch with.
To be able to make such experiments to see something of nonduality you have been there in the first place. Also you get a very different feeling when you are close to someone like this.
Adyashanti would also be at these events. I enjoyed him and I saw him to be excellent in his words not sure being fully awaken but I would not at all be surprised if he was but look at his past he spent years in Zen staring at walls etc. Ganaji to me was simply a nice looking blond chick using easy to learn interview techniques to bring about a response from the person she has seated next to her.
So many of these people from Papaji are the money takers I speak about. The truth is Papaji never gave his permission for anyone to go out and teach as a awaken being. Lastly one that did express me was Tony Parson who I met when I traveled to the UK.
There is something very telling about him when you are close to him as in one of his talks.Now granted he seemed known by his walk in the park experience however there is much more about him. For years and years he would study and meditate. When he says to you that you are not a person, that there is not one person here you do believe him not for his words but from his presence of being.

But here's the danger because his presence is so strong and rooted in the self it will cause a few people listening to him to have a strong oneness experience right then and there. However when this happens to someone with a strong ego and entrepreneur motivation it's all they need as the next day they have a book out and start giving seminars for money. It's a big business.
For myself also and I would say most of the people here or anywhere who would not love to be able to talk to people about something you love and get paid well for it. This is why you have so many of them. It's also why real guru's do not give a stamp of approval to go out and teach. They know what will happen.

So your points are well understood looking at it from a common sense perspective it's easy to see why there are these complaints.

Now I certainly believe it's possible more folks are waking up as done in RM and Papaji generations simply cuz we have 2-3 times the population but this instant stuff -claiming these the numbers I feel without a history of seeking within doubtful at best.

Michael



`

Nov 19, 2010 1:46:35 GMT -5 enigma said:

the complaint is that it's nihilistic and oversimplified in the teaching that there is nothing to know and you already are what you seek.

.

[klaus]

All teachers are merely pointers. That is, the finger that points.
Some are better at pointing then others, however no one has ever been enlightened by a finger. No I take that back; a finger yes, the pointer of said finger....

True, a few teachers will manifest various "siddhis" powers and people will be sucked in by them if they let themselves.
Just remember they are just detritus of the buddha mind.

[michaelsees]

Hi Klaus,

I agree with you mostly however well let me put it this way if I had the chance to sit for a month with lets say Adyashanti vs Ramana Maharshi I think you know what my answer would be .
Whatever the wish to call it there are certain beings that are so settled in self that it radiates from them.

peace
Michael

[enigma]

We create stories to make us feel warm and fuzzy, and so we demand that Truth be a little warmer and a little fuzzier than our stories about it. The problem is that the foundation on which we judge the Truth is all wrong, and so it doesn't look warm and fuzzy at all. If you think you are a frog, you'll be looking for a better lilly pad. The teacher is showing you a castle for a Prince and you don't know what a frog will do with a castle.

[m]

Although Reality is nor a concept nor an experience, "teachings" (that is "truth") seems to get through (kot)knowing and / or (not)feeling.
How comes I don't have any doubt about Ramana Maharshi as being somebody "enlightened" and I am so damned sure the vast majority of nowadays pretend to be "non-dual-enlightened-teachers" are moreless unconsciously out of it ?

[jazz]

I would estimate that I'm still pretty far away, but I'm still so new in this world that it's hard for me to say.

I'm very focused on being in the present. I read Eckhart Tolles "Power of Now" and found it very inspiring. Rwading it for the second time, actually.

I'm also reading The Bible (from the beginning), some Emmet Fox and 2 more books are on the way in the mail

So for now it's a lot of reading, meditating (Adyashanti was a great help there) and some inquiry. I don't know what I am supposed to expect but I do feel a shift in my thinking and my being. Like for instance I was drinking a loooot of coffee and when I tried to cut down or quit I got headaches (addiction right there, not serious tough). Now, I just don't feel the need for as much coffee. The impulsive want or need for more coffee seems to have lessened a lot and I think it's due to being still, being in the now and meditating.

Good stuff!!

[zendancer]

In the form of Ramana Maharshi Oneness sat in samadhi for many years and then spent another fifty years teaching on the mountain of Arunachula. In the form of the Buddha Oneness searched for six years, discovered Itself, and then wandered around India teaching for forty years. Oneness in the form of most people reading these words is sitting at a computer terminal thinking about "great teachers" who taught about the truth while overlooking the truth that is sitting at a computer terminal this moment. Put your attention on the oneness that is reading these words and stay with it. If the body gets up and goes to the bathroom, keep attention focused on what is happening. Oneness has gotten up from the computer and is now going to the bathroom. Whatever you see happening is what oneness is doing. There is no need to look any further than what is here and now. Who you are is Oneness doing whatever it is that you're doing. The mystery is always present. Trust yourself 100% because YOU are the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through YOU. YOU and your Father are One. Stop and be still. There is no need to look anywhere else! Forget the imaginary past and the imaginary future. Whatever you are doing now is what YOU are doing. This is how Oneness manifests.

[charliegee]

love the way you put that ZD ... very direct as Oneness writes back to Oneness to say this ...

[michaelsees]

ZD Yes you done a good job telling us absolutely how it really is.

Here's what people also need to know. What you said is of course the truth but to know this and actually realize it our 2 very different spaces. I see it like this you are either awake or not. If you are awake you would naturally see exactly as you posted it could not be otherwise, now if it was you are not awake. Now for the person that is not awake all that we are telling them this is the way it really is so put your attention there. The difference between the 2 is night and day.
One day maybe some "luck" falls on one of the persons who are have been working hard at staying present and bingo they become awake. From my experience there is no such thing as working towards being awake it will happen or not happen . I do agree it's helpful in many ways to stay present. So many of the world worries go away when you do but this but in my opinion does not make you awake. It happens when it happens.

Your mileage may very
Blessings
Michael

[ashtavakra]

Soul receives from soul that knowledge,
therefore not by book nor from tongue.
If knowledge of mysteries come after emptiness of mind,
that is illumination of heart

Rumi again....