park
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by park on Nov 17, 2010 7:37:19 GMT -5
Dear all,
After reading without success at finding some lasting conclusion or consensus, for a time I binned western philosophy as a kind of deluded-intellectualism, or just meaningless chatter.
But now it seems as though a lot of gems are there for the finding if the eye is discriminating enough.
I have not read many authors, but Nietzsche for one stands out. In "Thus Spoke Zaratustra" he is ordinarily taken to present a nihilistic, anti-metaphysical stance. But I have the unmistakable impression that in being "anti-god", and "anti-heavenly-Nothing" he is just saying "that's great, but it's further". Furthermore, from the perspective of consensual reality, the whole work reads as one koan after another.
Then we have, for instance, Plato's cave and Socrates, smelling of non-duality to high heaven ;D
Question for you guys: what's your relationship to western philosophy, what authors (if any) stand out as enlightened or as relating to truth as you see it or as valuable signposts?
Looking to go into Hegel a bit next.
Thanks, park.
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Post by linus on Nov 17, 2010 10:49:30 GMT -5
don't get too distracted searching dead peoples writing. nothing you need is hidden from you. go find it. Linus
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Post by zendancer on Nov 17, 2010 11:56:14 GMT -5
Philosophy is mind-food. You can find the truth faster by ignoring the food and going on a fast. LOL
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Post by loverofall on Nov 17, 2010 18:45:38 GMT -5
Great pointer ZD. LOL
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Post by peanut on Nov 17, 2010 19:31:33 GMT -5
philosophy? hhhmmmnnn too much thinking going on!
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Post by teetown on Nov 17, 2010 20:48:04 GMT -5
Franklin merrell wolff tried to reconcile non duality with western philosophy. You can find an entry on him on the spiritualteachers.org site.
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Post by michaelsees on Nov 17, 2010 20:57:51 GMT -5
Here's a pointer
We have great western philosopers, Socrates ,Plato, Aristotle,Plotinus, St. Augustine, St. Bonaventure, Thomas Aquinas and more.....
Now just for a moment pretend that all that knowledge came from you the real you. Now you are about to go a new journey to seek and find the real you which we now know does not exisit in anything past. Where the past does not help you because you made the past already.
Ok the 64,000 question what's your gameplan now? Anything in the past is past and the future not is created yet by you. All you have is the present and that is where the journey must begin by going as deep as you can into the present moment and that is where your journey will end in the present moment. You can study for your whole lifetime in the past will not help a bit simply because you already know all the past. This is how I proved this to my ownself. No matter what I have read, studied, taught etc came from me. How do I know well did you ever have those aha moments where everthing comes together like you heard it for the first time and now you both know it and realized it?
Well becomming awaken is nothing like this it's not a aha moment because it has nothing to do with any past or knowledge that you have. It has to do with nothing that you know, read or undersood etc. It cannot be known like this for all that stuff is of the mind and a true awakening can never be assoicated with the mind or knowledge. So all those aha moments can be very nice for your personal ego, can put a shiver going up your spine etc but has nothing at all to do with awakening.
Warning I am a bit of a radical with this teachings most will never agree or believe what I say but who cares if what I say is a bit of a shock, or feels depressing or whatever then that is a good thing. If you only put your attention and intention into this present moment and stay there as long as you can and drop everything else you will arrive and meet your own self . It need not take a long time if your able to let go of all your past.
with love Michael MEDIEVAL PHILOSOPHERS
* The Philosophy of St. Augustine * The Philosophy of St. Bonaventure * The Philosophy of Thomas Aquinas * The Philosophy of John Duns Scotus
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park
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by park on Nov 18, 2010 4:38:20 GMT -5
Aren't you all a bunch of well intentioned monomaniacs? What's the difference between attending satsang with your guru-de-jour, reading the discourses of Rinzai or reading some historical western dude? Or reading this board and reading Rinzai? Seems like something to entertain the mind AND potentially getting it to find something to increase wonderment, confusion and determination. Maybe even getting some pointers to shorten the trek? (from here to here?) Don't know if it works that way... Maybe you find that books/understanding do not work so well not by believing that idea, but by reading your 2000 books and finding out by yourself? don't get too distracted searching dead peoples writing. nothing you need is hidden from you. go find it. Linus a) because object creates the illusion of subject, thus there is nothing to find except that there is no subject? OR b) because subject is in plain view, as distinct from object, only not recognized? Franklin merrell wolff tried to reconcile non duality with western philosophy. You can find an entry on him on the spiritualteachers.org site. By the little I read, he was very much complimentary to Kant and Hegel, but considered neither to have the "real-deal". Are there any, even if the real deal is that there is no (mind)-real-deal? Socrates?
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Post by zendancer on Nov 18, 2010 11:28:41 GMT -5
Aren't you all a bunch of well intentioned monomaniacs? What's the difference between attending satsang with your guru-de-jour, reading the discourses of Rinzai or reading some historical western dude? Or reading this board and reading Rinzai? Seems like something to entertain the mind AND potentially getting it to find something to increase wonderment, confusion and determination. Maybe even getting some pointers to shorten the trek? (from here to here?) Don't know if it works that way... Maybe you find that books/understanding do not work so well not by believing that idea, but by reading your 2000 books and finding out by yourself? don't get too distracted searching dead peoples writing. nothing you need is hidden from you. go find it. Linus a) because object creates the illusion of subject, thus there is nothing to find except that there is no subject? OR b) because subject is in plain view, as distinct from object, only not recognized? Franklin merrell wolff tried to reconcile non duality with western philosophy. You can find an entry on him on the spiritualteachers.org site. By the little I read, he was very much complimentary to Kant and Hegel, but considered neither to have the "real-deal". Are there any, even if the real deal is that there is no (mind)-real-deal? Socrates? Yes, we're all monomaniacs! LOL. The difference between reading Rinzai or attending a satsang with a realized teacher and reading western philosophers is that the latter group of people dwelled in reflective thought. Rinzai's words are alive whereas the words of most philosophers are dead. If you read about the lives of most famous philosophers, you'll discover that their ideas about reality did not lead them to freedom, joy, equanimity, and good humor. Realized teachers, by contrast, manifest the aliveness of reality, have discovered their oneness with it, and are therefore relaxed and free. Their words are directly pointing to the truth whereas the words of most philosophers are pointing to thoughts. The goal of all realized teachers is to shake students free from thoughts. Philosophers generally lead students deeper into thoughts. Most adults abide in the mind and are dominated by mind. This is where seekers start from. Realized teachers are always pointing to what is beyond the mind, and they encourage people to see what is always here and now. Seekers cannot simply drop the mind because thinking is a long-practiced habit and dropping the mind seems to them either senseless or frightening. Yet, dropping the mind is necessary if one wants to know the truth. Leonard Jacobsen sums it up quite well in these quotes (all quotes are from "Embracing the Present, Living an Awakened Life") "There is mind's world and God's world. .......If you want to come out of the mind, then thinking will have to stop." "The simple truth is that there is no life outside of this moment. The life which you believe in is nothing but an illusion which you have constructed in your mind using the power of thought, memory, and imagination. It is not real. Nothing outside of this moment is real." "There is no journey. There is no destination. You are already here." Looking around I see the truth. Whatever I think about what I see is imaginary. Listening, I hear the truth. Whatever I think about what I hear is imaginary. Reaching out, I touch the truth. Whatever I think about touching is imaginary. Whatever I think about the truth is imaginary. Whatever I think is imaginary. In silence the truth shines forth. Cheers.
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Post by michaelsees on Nov 18, 2010 13:09:14 GMT -5
Excellent ZD very well put. Iegarding would say regarding Jacobsen's words There is no journey this is true when you are fully realized and dewl in the present moment but at least for me is a small journey out of the mind and dropping within. This switch continues to happen as long as your in the body. Papaji who I sat with a few times would go after satsang to the TV room and loved to watch cricket matches I can tell you he was all mind while watching just as we may be having beers and pizza watching the super bowl. Since I believe he was a fully realized being he had no switching to be done the present moment was always with him. As for me there are many many times I am not fully in the present using my mind and memory and it takes a few moments of centering to be fully present even though I know that everything outside this is not real.
Michael
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Post by zendancer on Nov 18, 2010 14:37:00 GMT -5
Yes, there can be the appearance of switching between mind and presence, but if self-reflection is absent, then the switching ceases to be seen as switching. During this moment there is silence and during the next moment there is thinking, and both the silence and the thinking are an uninterrupted flow of presence. There is no one who is silent and there is no one who thinks; it is all the same unified process. The body sees everything that's happening without the mind imagining that there is a separate entity involved in the happening.
Thinking continues to occur, but there is no longer any identification with the thinking. Emptiness (alive, dynamic, mysterious, unknowing) reigns.
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Post by Portto on Nov 18, 2010 14:52:19 GMT -5
Philosophy can be a step forward from fighting with other family members over inheritance. It can lead to some sort of expanded point of view. And it's most useful if it can get the mind so tired that it stops thinking for a while. Then, thinking may stop being 'heavy' and 'entrancing.'
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Post by michaelsees on Nov 18, 2010 15:17:17 GMT -5
ZD can you give a example of this because surely when your watching sports presence needs to somehow be identified with the mind or you simply could not watch anything nor do anything with your body correct. Do you mean no longer identification with the ego perhaps. thanks Michael Thinking continues to occur, but there is no longer any identification with the thinking. Emptiness (alive, dynamic, mysterious, unknowing) reigns.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 18, 2010 17:10:57 GMT -5
Well, when the body is watching sports, it is just watching sports. There is no reflectiveness, nothing "extra." There is no thinking, such as, "I (a separate entity) am watching sports." Even if the thought, "I am watching sports" occurs, there is no ownership of the statement, no underlying attachment to the idea that someone separate is watching what is happening. Thoughts, whenever they occur, are as empty as everything else.
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Post by michaelsees on Nov 18, 2010 18:41:43 GMT -5
Yes but the thinking process is still working the only change is no person there but is not this just a intellectual thing. As you know so much of nonduality today is similar to EST or Landmark . The idea of getting it through the intellect. I dare say most folks that feel they are awaken feel this way because the intellect has put all the puzzle pieces together and they now truly believe they have awaken. As example pretend I am fully awaken and realized. I sit down to watch a football game. I see the playing going on, I also think that was the wrong play they should have gone to the outside etc. The only difference is there is no ownership as if looked within there is no person or thinker? Michael
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