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Post by enigma on Mar 1, 2013 23:01:43 GMT -5
Yes the attempt to rid anyone of anything is itself delusion and a rather obvious delusion illustrated by RT. What we're really getting at is the fact that Truth carries no agenda whatsoever. Even the agenda of helping and saving. To recognize and be the living Truth is to understand what Love really is. Love is equally fierce as it is soft and comforting. It moves in ways that you will never predict. One moment it may recognize itself in another and move in a way that leaves no mercy for anything false. Another moment it may simply and calmy tell someone who wishes to be free of delusion to leave and leave them be with all the falsehoods they cling tightly to. The point is that you do not know, you will not know and you can not harness the mysterious ways in which God moves through you. The truth is truly that people are neither entitled nor not entitled to their delusions. What you're left with is not a life strategy or a code of conduct but rather a naked vulnerability, through which Truth seeks only to associate with itself. Very well said. Some things Francis is saying here don't ring true, which surprises me since I like Francis. When one is operating under the influence of delusion, it's hard to say one is exercising one's freedom to choose delusion. Also, the one who experiences the freedom to believe, and suffers from that belief, is not experiencing the happiness of freedom. He really is experiencing suffering. In one way, freedom means God can create his own prison, but it is not freedom from the prisoner's point of view. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 1, 2013 23:05:31 GMT -5
The truth is truly that people are neither entitled nor not entitled to their delusions. No, of course not. Persons are not the real. Source, however, plays whatever role it chooses. And if it chooses to play a vagrant wino and wants nothing more than his next bottle, that is It's right. If it chooses to experiences cirrhosis of the liver and die a painful death alone in the cold, that is Its choice. If It decides that it wants to open to other possibilities, the teacher will come. Freedom does not belong to people, it belongs to Freedom Itself. Source doesn't choose. As such, it doesn't have some inherent right to a choice. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 1, 2013 23:20:29 GMT -5
so who is it that has a right to their delusions when source is playing all the parts? Its pretty clear that if all there is is Source, it is Source acting out the ignorance. Acting out ignorance is not the same as having freedom of choice. Ignorance robs even Source of the ability to choose freely. A metaphor (in a different context) would be choosing, under hypnosis, to cluck like a chicken when a trigger word is heard. To respect that freedom of choice, or even to acknowledge it, would be absurd. |
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 1, 2013 23:36:26 GMT -5
Greetings.. Its pretty clear that if all there is is Source, it is Source acting out the ignorance. Acting out ignorance is not the same as having freedom of choice. Ignorance robs even Source of the ability to choose freely. A metaphor (in a different context) would be choosing, under hypnosis, to cluck like a chicken when a trigger word is heard. To respect that freedom of choice, or even to acknowledge it, would be absurd. Keeping in mind the choice to hypnotized, taking the responsibility for those choices.. arguing against freedom of choice is also arguing against responsibility and the consequences for irresponsible or manipulative behavior.. Be well.. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 1, 2013 23:49:55 GMT -5
Greetings.. Acting out ignorance is not the same as having freedom of choice. Ignorance robs even Source of the ability to choose freely. A metaphor (in a different context) would be choosing, under hypnosis, to cluck like a chicken when a trigger word is heard. To respect that freedom of choice, or even to acknowledge it, would be absurd. Keeping in mind the choice to hypnotized, taking the responsibility for those choices.. arguing against freedom of choice is also arguing against responsibility and the consequences for irresponsible or manipulative behavior.. Be well.. Many peeps can be hypnotized without their permission or choice. Yes, in the larger sense, arguing against freedom within delusion is to argue against responsibility. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2013 2:41:19 GMT -5
Anyone who's ever spent any time performing the function of salesperson knows that the most effective way to get into a conversation with someone that leads to the sale is to get them to start talking about who they are, what they want, what their goals are, etc ... The trick is to get them to the point where they come up with the idea that they want what you're selling on their own.
Yes, selling something is an inherently manipulative endeavor. 
Selling is only manipulative when the seller is trying to get a person to buy something they do not want or need.
I sense no manipulation when a shop sells me groceries or puta parts or taillights for me ute. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2013 2:48:44 GMT -5
No! No! No! ... you all have it all WRONG!!! |
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Post by justlikeyou on Mar 2, 2013 9:35:18 GMT -5
In one way, freedom means God can create his own prison, but it is not freedom from the prisoner's point of view. Lucille said: "The one who is ignorant and is willing to remain ignorant doesn't experience himself as ignorant, but as free to choose" This points to those who have no desire to look within. They are happy to remain in their delusions, and feel quite justified in doing so. Many prisoners are in rebellion against the man, the system, their mother or father and feel absolutely justified in their "criminal" behavior. You can not help such as these. They will only view your "assistance" as an anoyance at best. Now if there were a "prisoner" who was troubled by his conditioning and wished to be better, here is where there is an opening for a teacher. But to "preach" to those who are happy as they are is like trying to force an unrepentant murdered into church. He just might kill you in the process. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Mar 2, 2013 9:36:55 GMT -5
Adyashanti:
"When someone asks me who they are or what God is I smile inside and whisper to the Light: There you go again pretending."
Mooji:
"Each face is a stage face, a stage name of the One Supreme Being"
Alan Watts:
"God also likes to play hide-and-seek, but because there is nothing outside God, He has no one but himself to play with. But He gets over this difficulty by pretending that He is not Himself."
"This is His way of hiding from Himself. He pretends that He is you and I and all the people in the world, all the animals, all the plants, all the rocks, and all the stars."
"In this way He has strange and wonderful adventures, some of which are terrible and frightening. But these are just like bad dreams, for when He wakes up they will disappear."
"Now when God plays hide and pretends that He is you and I, He does it so well that it takes Him a long time to remember where and how He hid Himself. But that’s the whole fun of it-just what He wanted to do.
"He doesn’t want to find Himself out too quickly, for that would spoil the game. That is why it is so difficult for you and me to find out that we are God in disguise, pretending not to be Himself."
"You may ask why God sometimes hides in the form of horrible people, or pretends to be people who suffer great disease and pain. Remember, first, that He isn’t really doing this to anyone but Himself."
"But when the game has gone on long enough, all of us will wake up, stop pretending, and remember that we are all one single Self-the God who is all that there is and who lives for ever and ever."
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Post by enigma on Mar 2, 2013 11:03:12 GMT -5
In one way, freedom means God can create his own prison, but it is not freedom from the prisoner's point of view. Lucille said: "The one who is ignorant and is willing to remain ignorant doesn't experience himself as ignorant, but as free to choose" This points to those who have no desire to look within. They are happy to remain in their delusions, and feel quite justified in doing so. Many prisoners are in rebellion against the man, the system, their mother or father and feel absolutely justified in their "criminal" behavior. You can not help such as these. They will only view your "assistance" as an anoyance at best. Now if there were a "prisoner" who was troubled by his conditioning and wished to be better, here is where there is an opening for a teacher. But to "preach" to those who are happy as they are is like trying to force an unrepentant murdered into church. He just might kill you in the process. I agree. I'm disagreeing with what Francis said: That freedom to choose is an illusion and it does not ultimately lead to the experience of happiness. Illusion leads to suffering. I'm not talking about what should or shouldn't be done about it, which is a question that presupposes more freedom to choose while denying that supposed freedom to those who choose to help. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 2, 2013 11:10:19 GMT -5
Adyashanti: "When someone asks me who they are or what God is I smile inside and whisper to the Light: There you go again pretending." Mooji: "Each face is a stage face, a stage name of the One Supreme Being" Alan Watts: "God also likes to play hide-and-seek, but because there is nothing outside God, He has no one but himself to play with. But He gets over this difficulty by pretending that He is not Himself." "This is His way of hiding from Himself. He pretends that He is you and I and all the people in the world, all the animals, all the plants, all the rocks, and all the stars." "In this way He has strange and wonderful adventures, some of which are terrible and frightening. But these are just like bad dreams, for when He wakes up they will disappear." "Now when God plays hide and pretends that He is you and I, He does it so well that it takes Him a long time to remember where and how He hid Himself. But that’s the whole fun of it-just what He wanted to do. "He doesn’t want to find Himself out too quickly, for that would spoil the game. That is why it is so difficult for you and me to find out that we are God in disguise, pretending not to be Himself." "You may ask why God sometimes hides in the form of horrible people, or pretends to be people who suffer great disease and pain. Remember, first, that He isn’t really doing this to anyone but Himself." "But when the game has gone on long enough, all of us will wake up, stop pretending, and remember that we are all one single Self-the God who is all that there is and who lives for ever and ever." But it's a metaphor. There isn't a God who has likes and dislikes, who sits around making choices and hiding and playing games of pretend. All of this only happens in ignorance and delusion. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Mar 2, 2013 11:57:19 GMT -5
But it's a metaphor. There isn't a God who has likes and dislikes, who sits around making choices and hiding and playing games of pretend. All of this only happens in ignorance and delusion. Is it just simple metaphor? The Bhagavad Gita points to a God who very much enjoys existence in the body (see below). Since we know that there is not a real "person" the question becomes who then is living all these billions of apparent existences in the world? Who rejoices? Who suffers? Who awakens? Who dies deluded? If there is only God, can anyone but He experience anything? Chapter 15 - 8. When the lord takes on a body, or when he leaves one behind, he takes these things away with him when he goes, just as the wind carries fragrances away from thier source. 9. Hearing and sight and touch and taste and smell, and the mind as well. Indeed he savors sense objects. 10. But the deluded do not recognise him as he leaves a body, or as he dwells in one, or as he experiences the body, engaged as it is in the conditions of nature. But those who have the eye of knowledge see him there! Edit: meant to say "Is it just simple metaphor?" Not "It is just simple metaphor?" |
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Post by enigma on Mar 2, 2013 12:41:21 GMT -5
But it's a metaphor. There isn't a God who has likes and dislikes, who sits around making choices and hiding and playing games of pretend. All of this only happens in ignorance and delusion. Is it just simple metaphor? The Bhagavad Gita points to a God who very much enjoys existence in the body (see below). Since we know that there is not a real "person" the question becomes who then is living all these billions of apparent existences in the world? Who rejoices? Who suffers? Who awakens? Who dies deluded? If there is only God, can anyone but He experience anything? Yes, it is what we call God/Intelligence/creative potential/you, whatever, but that which is the source of likes, dislikes, choosing, hiding, playing games, is doing none of that until it touches it's own creation. When it does so, it becomes apparently fragmented. It is God, and it is God's desire, but the desire arises from his own fragmentation. God is the fragment but the fragment is not God. God falls into his own dream, and it is from within the dream that all arises. A freedom that arises from within the dream is not true freedom. A choice made in self delusion is not a true choice. Happiness found through an imaginary fragment is not true happiness. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Mar 2, 2013 13:23:06 GMT -5
Is it just simple metaphor? The Bhagavad Gita points to a God who very much enjoys existence in the body (see below). Since we know that there is not a real "person" the question becomes who then is living all these billions of apparent existences in the world? Who rejoices? Who suffers? Who awakens? Who dies deluded? If there is only God, can anyone but He experience anything? Yes, it is what we call God/Intelligence/creative potential/you, whatever, but that which is the source of likes, dislikes, choosing, hiding, playing games, is doing none of that until it touches it's own creation. When it does so, it becomes apparently fragmented. It is God, and it is God's desire, but the desire arises from his own fragmentation. God is the fragment but the fragment is not God. God falls into his own dream, and it is from within the dream that all arises. A freedom that arises from within the dream is not true freedom. A choice made in self delusion is not a true choice. Happiness found through an imaginary fragment is not true happiness. Not talking here about choices made in self delusion. Seems to me that God is a big boy. He clearly likes to dream and He delights in playing dream characters. If He chooses to play the part of a deluded "person" who dies in his delusion at 78, that is the part He chose to play. A role is just that...a role. It isn't real. However, the role can be played in one of two ways; by one who is awake and by one who is deluded. The real fun is playing the role awake and knowingly. And only here can one be of any real service to humanity. Everything else is simply the blind leading the blind. |
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 2, 2013 13:52:16 GMT -5
Greetings.. Adyashanti: "When someone asks me who they are or what God is I smile inside and whisper to the Light: There you go again pretending." Mooji: "Each face is a stage face, a stage name of the One Supreme Being" Alan Watts: "God also likes to play hide-and-seek, but because there is nothing outside God, He has no one but himself to play with. But He gets over this difficulty by pretending that He is not Himself." "This is His way of hiding from Himself. He pretends that He is you and I and all the people in the world, all the animals, all the plants, all the rocks, and all the stars." "In this way He has strange and wonderful adventures, some of which are terrible and frightening. But these are just like bad dreams, for when He wakes up they will disappear." "Now when God plays hide and pretends that He is you and I, He does it so well that it takes Him a long time to remember where and how He hid Himself. But that’s the whole fun of it-just what He wanted to do. "He doesn’t want to find Himself out too quickly, for that would spoil the game. That is why it is so difficult for you and me to find out that we are God in disguise, pretending not to be Himself." "You may ask why God sometimes hides in the form of horrible people, or pretends to be people who suffer great disease and pain. Remember, first, that He isn’t really doing this to anyone but Himself." "But when the game has gone on long enough, all of us will wake up, stop pretending, and remember that we are all one single Self-the God who is all that there is and who lives for ever and ever." Nice!! consistently judgmental and sufficiently derogatory to incite some negativity.. you might benefit from open-minded discussions about how the 'metaphors' influence Life.. Be well.. |
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