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Post by andrew on Jan 23, 2013 17:13:19 GMT -5
My experience is of 'humourous dismissal' from you when you have been shown that what you are offering has big old holes in it. You normally engage a wing man to assist you with the mocking rather than directly mock i.e. you talk 'about' rather than 'talk to'. This has the added benefit for you of getting someone on board. I do tend to 'talk about' in a rather dismissing way cuz, as I said, I have given up any chance of communication by then. I HAVE dismissed the conversation. Talking about and mocking the one that you have stopped talking to is hardly dismissing the conversation!
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Post by enigma on Jan 23, 2013 17:18:41 GMT -5
Yeah Reefs, exactly. I can't imagine it. Teachers, they just have nothing left to learn and no interest in learning it. They'd stop being teachers if they did!So when one teacher tries to teach another teacher - what can come of it? You mean spiritual teachers or teachers of any kind? I'm pretty sure he means diving instructors and auto mechanics. ;D
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Post by Peter on Jan 23, 2013 17:18:59 GMT -5
I do tend to 'talk about' in a rather dismissing way cuz, as I said, I have given up any chance of communication by then. I HAVE dismissed the conversation. Oh, we're at this point in the conversation again. I feel like Dr Manhattan in Watchmen. OK, so you're talking to to your wingmen in dismissive way about Member X when you've given up communicating with Member X... why?
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Post by enigma on Jan 23, 2013 17:20:24 GMT -5
I do tend to 'talk about' in a rather dismissing way cuz, as I said, I have given up any chance of communication by then. I HAVE dismissed the conversation. Talking about and mocking the one that you have stopped talking to is hardly dismissing the conversation! Yeah....really, it is.
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Post by enigma on Jan 23, 2013 17:35:31 GMT -5
I do tend to 'talk about' in a rather dismissing way cuz, as I said, I have given up any chance of communication by then. I HAVE dismissed the conversation. Oh, we're at this point in the conversation again. I feel like Dr Manhattan in Watchmen. OK, so you're talking to to your wingmen in dismissive way about Member X when you've given up communicating with Member X... why? Well, I guess it presents the opportunity to talk about what's really going on with somebody who can actually hear me. I like to hear clarity from others and I'm almost always inclined to try to add to it. These days I often resist that impulse when it's about someone else because folks take it personally and find it rude. One of the reasons they do may be that it comes across as too clear. Mostly, the humor associated with that in the past, to which folks objected so strongly, has been dropped. I'm assuming that's considered a good thing.
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 23, 2013 23:43:01 GMT -5
Oh, we're at this point in the conversation again. I feel like Dr Manhattan in Watchmen. OK, so you're talking to to your wingmen in dismissive way about Member X when you've given up communicating with Member X... why? Well, I guess it presents the opportunity to talk about what's really going on with somebody who can actually hear me. I like to hear clarity from others and I'm almost always inclined to try to add to it. These days I often resist that impulse when it's about someone else because folks take it personally and find it rude. One of the reasons they do may be that it comes across as too clear. Mostly, the humor associated with that in the past, to which folks objected so strongly, has been dropped. I'm assuming that's considered a good thing.This is where i try to be sincere, clear, direct, and succinct, and.. it is often mistaken as confrontational or condescending or some other value judgment that creates the opportunity, intentionally or not, for the observation/opinion/question to be misrepresented or deflected away from what was intended to be an open and honest dialogue.. in this instance, what follows is my normal 'feeling' about the most productive way to initiate open and honest dialogue about the quote, mostly the first sentence.. In the first sentence you speak about " what's really going on".. do you realize that your reference to " what's really going on" can only represent your perspective? i am eager to discuss what 'is happening', but i seldom describe it as ' whats really happening''.. i understand that my perspective of what is happening is unlikely to be " what's really going on", hence the intention to share, discuss, scrutinize, challenge, and modify my perspective where revealed to be appropriate.. It is difficult to arrive at the place where discussions reveal the appropriateness for modifying my understandings and/or perspectives.. usually because people, myself included, resort to 'techniques' that defend their position, and.. a personal internal challenge, for me, is to avoid the inclination to force a discussion into the model that is most beneficial 'for me', for my understanding.. it becomes most apparent, for me, when i see people forcing discussions into a model they believe is most beneficial for others, regardless of what others reveal about their own self-awareness.. It is difficult to find people willing to explore explore their existence with others as peers, as people equally interested in clarity, equally interested in their own misunderstandings as well as their perceptions of the misunderstandings of others.. i can only speak for myself, but.. because it is so difficult to find productive beneficial discussions, and forums like these hold themselves out as having real potential for such discussions, i find my passions for such discussions are likely to be less tolerant of those i perceive as less sincere.. when, it is likely that even a madman is sincere in his madness, i will try to gauge the expression of my own sincerity with the expressions of others as equally sincere, regardless of my feelings about their expressions.. as either, or both, of us could be the madman.. or, neither, too.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2013 1:23:22 GMT -5
Well, I guess it presents the opportunity to talk about what's really going on with somebody who can actually hear me. I like to hear clarity from others and I'm almost always inclined to try to add to it. These days I often resist that impulse when it's about someone else because folks take it personally and find it rude. One of the reasons they do may be that it comes across as too clear. Mostly, the humor associated with that in the past, to which folks objected so strongly, has been dropped. I'm assuming that's considered a good thing. This is where i try to be sincere, clear, direct, and succinct, and.. it is often mistaken as confrontational or condescending or some other value judgment that creates the opportunity, intentionally or not, for the observation/opinion/question to be misrepresented or deflected away from what was intended to be an open and honest dialogue.. in this instance, what follows is my normal 'feeling' about the most productive way to initiate open and honest dialogue about the quote, mostly the first sentence.. In the first sentence you speak about " what's really going on".. do you realize that your reference to " what's really going on" can only represent your perspective? Yes, of course. I have never claimed sole rights to 'what's really going on'. The reason I used that word is that our interest is presumably not on what we imagine about what's going on, but rather what presents most obviously, before the imagination kicks in. We can't define precisely where this occurs, and certainly words are misinterpreted and intentions may be lost along with inflections and such, but it's my experience that folks find it challenging enough to accurately read all the words in a post without weaving threads of assumption, conclusion and bias throughout. Some clearly CAN do this with fair regularity, so it seems like a viable goal. In any event, that's what I mean by what's really happening.
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Post by Peter on Jan 24, 2013 4:21:18 GMT -5
Well I feel like we're getting somewhere although I'll note in passing that "what is really going on" will invariably have nothing to with the thread topic. Not making a judgement on that. There's something I feel I'm missing here: explore their existence with others as peers What does "as peers" mean here, Tzujanli? It sounds like you have some expectation about how your writing 'should' be received and responded to. What is that? I asked you earlier in the thread, I think you missed it: i say this after many attempts here and at SF, enigma will not entertain reciprocity, an equal measure of respect.. I don't know that Enigma has ever requested anyone's respect. He doesn't like being name-called certainly, but I don't know about respect. Why do you feel you need his? And it does seem to be his, specifically, that you need?
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 24, 2013 9:06:59 GMT -5
Greetings.. Well I feel like we're getting somewhere although I'll note in passing that "what is really going on" will invariably have nothing to with the thread topic. Not making a judgement on that. There's something I feel I'm missing here: explore their existence with others as peers What does "as peers" mean here, Tzujanli? It sounds like you have some expectation about how your writing 'should' be received and responded to. What is that? I asked you earlier in the thread, I think you missed it: I don't know that Enigma has ever requested anyone's respect. He doesn't like being name-called certainly, but I don't know about respect. Why do you feel you need his? And it does seem to be his, specifically, that you need?[/quote] "Peers", acknowledgement that we are all in this together.. the absence of superior/inferior attitude, which breeds conflict.. usually, at this place in the discussion, there is the attempt to placate with, 'well, that's a given', but it's not.. if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's probably a duck.. my interest in the 'peer awareness' is in the general health of environment, "a rising tide lifts ALL boats (peers)".. a teacher can effectively teach without aggressive 'intervention' attitudes.. Regarding Enigma's respect, if some one presents their understandings of existence, and when others challenge those understandings the presenter mocks, ridicules, or misrepresents the challengers rather than engage in an exploration of the differences.. i sense the presenter is is demanding respect with disrespect.. that's just my 'feeling' about the situation.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2013 10:48:43 GMT -5
Greetings.."Peers", acknowledgement that we are all in this together.. the absence of superior/inferior attitude, which breeds conflict.. usually, at this place in the discussion, there is the attempt to placate with, 'well, that's a given', but it's not.. if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's probably a duck.. my interest in the 'peer awareness' is in the general health of environment, "a rising tide lifts ALL boats (peers)".. a teacher can effectively teach without aggressive 'intervention' attitudes.. Regarding Enigma's respect, if some one presents their understandings of existence, and when others challenge those understandings the presenter mocks, ridicules, or misrepresents the challengers rather than engage in an exploration of the differences.. i sense the presenter is is demanding respect with disrespect.. that's just my 'feeling' about the situation.. Be well.. I agree tzu... He's really exceptional at clinging to his point of view, but appears to be unaware of surrendering to what love would 'do.' To the ego, however, surrender is defeat and disgrace.
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2013 14:18:06 GMT -5
Greetings.. Well I feel like we're getting somewhere although I'll note in passing that "what is really going on" will invariably have nothing to with the thread topic. Not making a judgement on that. There's something I feel I'm missing here: What does "as peers" mean here, Tzujanli? It sounds like you have some expectation about how your writing 'should' be received and responded to. What is that? I asked you earlier in the thread, I think you missed it: I don't know that Enigma has ever requested anyone's respect. He doesn't like being name-called certainly, but I don't know about respect. Why do you feel you need his? And it does seem to be his, specifically, that you need?"Peers", acknowledgement that we are all in this together.. the absence of superior/inferior attitude, which breeds conflict.. usually, at this place in the discussion, there is the attempt to placate with, 'well, that's a given', but it's not.. if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's probably a duck.. my interest in the 'peer awareness' is in the general health of environment, "a rising tide lifts ALL boats (peers)".. a teacher can effectively teach without aggressive 'intervention' attitudes.. Regarding Enigma's respect, if some one presents their understandings of existence, and when others challenge those understandings the presenter mocks, ridicules, or misrepresents the challengers rather than engage in an exploration of the differences.. i sense the presenter is is demanding respect with disrespect.. that's just my 'feeling' about the situation.. Be well..[/quote] I don't mock, ridicule and misrepresent, at least no more so than others. When this idea gets so ingrained through repetition that it seems to be fact, then one starts drawing erroneous conclusions from those alleged facts. This is something andrew and figs also do regularly. My focus would have us back up the whole process and weed out the giraffes first.
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2013 14:21:09 GMT -5
Greetings.."Peers", acknowledgement that we are all in this together.. the absence of superior/inferior attitude, which breeds conflict.. usually, at this place in the discussion, there is the attempt to placate with, 'well, that's a given', but it's not.. if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's probably a duck.. my interest in the 'peer awareness' is in the general health of environment, "a rising tide lifts ALL boats (peers)".. a teacher can effectively teach without aggressive 'intervention' attitudes.. Regarding Enigma's respect, if some one presents their understandings of existence, and when others challenge those understandings the presenter mocks, ridicules, or misrepresents the challengers rather than engage in an exploration of the differences.. i sense the presenter is is demanding respect with disrespect.. that's just my 'feeling' about the situation.. Be well.. I agree tzu... He's really exceptional at clinging to his point of view, but appears to be unaware of surrendering to what love would 'do.' To the ego, however, surrender is defeat and disgrace. Do you see how it could be said that your post mocks, ridicules and misrepresents?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2013 15:00:55 GMT -5
I agree tzu... He's really exceptional at clinging to his point of view, but appears to be unaware of surrendering to what love would 'do.' To the ego, however, surrender is defeat and disgrace. Do you see how it could be said that your post mocks, ridicules and misrepresents? I'm simply sharing when you give in to your need to be right, you are turning your back on love, communion, and unity.
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Post by Reefs on Jan 24, 2013 19:57:05 GMT -5
Greetings.."Peers", acknowledgement that we are all in this together.. the absence of superior/inferior attitude, which breeds conflict.. usually, at this place in the discussion, there is the attempt to placate with, 'well, that's a given', but it's not.. if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's probably a duck.. my interest in the 'peer awareness' is in the general health of environment, "a rising tide lifts ALL boats (peers)".. a teacher can effectively teach without aggressive 'intervention' attitudes.. Regarding Enigma's respect, if some one presents their understandings of existence, and when others challenge those understandings the presenter mocks, ridicules, or misrepresents the challengers rather than engage in an exploration of the differences.. i sense the presenter is is demanding respect with disrespect.. that's just my 'feeling' about the situation.. Be well.. I agree tzu... He's really exceptional at clinging to his point of view, but appears to be unaware of surrendering to what love would 'do.' To the ego, however, surrender is defeat and disgrace. No. To the ego that did the surrendering, surrender is something to be vewy vewy proud of as seen in these conversations.
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2013 23:04:57 GMT -5
Do you see how it could be said that your post mocks, ridicules and misrepresents? I'm simply sharing when you give in to your need to be right, you are turning your back on love, communion, and unity. Of course not. You're just making stuff up. (It was a serious question.)
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