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Post by Peter on Jan 21, 2013 15:35:18 GMT -5
And so we return to that hardy perennial of the board: "Why is Enigma not behaving like I want him to/think he should behave?" most recently discussed with Tzujanli, here. I think I'll rant about teachers in general first, and then go on to dissect Tzujanli's particular beef in a second post. The thing is Tzu, that you burst onto the scene here with the full confidence of one who Knows What They're Talking About. In my book, you identified yourself as a Teacher. And looking at your website confirmed this. And I see Enigma as a Teacher too. I think the reason that I find Enigma quite willing to clarify when I speak to him (equally way before I was a moderator) is that I put on the "student" hat when I do so, which is how teachers like to operate: with students asking for clarification, asking questions, and the teachers graciously granting them answers and basking in the glow of their dispensed wisdom. It is a balanced equation. Do you recognise that this is how the transaction works, or do you think that you give of your experience asking for nothing, expecting nothing, freely and with open handed generosity? So when a teacher starts asking another teacher....shoot, it just ain't going to end well. There's no way to balance the exchange, unless one party can admit that they've learned something. Ha ha, I find that I'm writing with an American accent, I'm obviously being pulled to remember my first post to you - where I saw you as the new gunsligner in town. And you'd been with us for just 5 days, talk about getting stuck right in! The thing about A Teacher - in my experience - is that they have a lot invested in that self image. Show me a teacher who welcomes challenge. Who regularly says "I've no idea about that relevant point. I've obviously missed something, please tell me". So they tend to react against challenges to that image. They "filter out" any suggestion that their poo poo might smell bad. Which is what I was referring to when you brushed off my suggestion that you might have a full cup and I responded that your psychic shields had taken no damage! You don't have a full cup? Really? That's all in my imagination is it? I'm looking at 299 of your posts and in every one you're expressing your opinion while not taking on board anything that is being said to you. At no point do you take an interest or ask about anyone else's point of view except to challenge it, or show your own as superior. Teachers really want to be Given The Respect They Deserve. You and Tath tick that box. He totally lost the plot when he wasn't getting it, starting posting about how many millions his company was earning, how high his IQ was, how gorgeous his wife was - posting pictures of her. As self destructs go, it was stellar. Shame he deleted his entire online life overnight, it was educational. I think that need for peer respect is what drives a lot of these teacher-teacher challenges that arise.
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Post by laughter on Jan 21, 2013 15:48:10 GMT -5
I'll put in a good word for Tzu' here ... he has thanked me twice now for playing the roll of semantic street-sweeper, even though I busted his chops for running at enigma once or twice on top of it.
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Post by topology on Jan 21, 2013 15:55:26 GMT -5
I will also vouch for Tzujanli. He has his perspective of things, but he's not trying to gather a following. If anything I'd say he enjoys to butt heads for the sake of butting heads. ;D. Tath and Tzu, I don't think are comparable. Tzu's argument comes from a fundamental philosophic difference.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 15:59:50 GMT -5
I'm aware of who my teachers are (I even listed them this morning).
That is all. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 16:10:37 GMT -5
crikey .. the mod is one of E's students, well that fills in a few blanks ..
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Post by laughter on Jan 21, 2013 16:17:18 GMT -5
shrewd observation with great comedic value farmer ... but ...
<captain_obvious> what I think I read there was Peter describing the experience of playing the role of student while having a go at the teacher role in general </captain_obvious>
edit: note to Self .... apply to W3C for equivalence of "straight_man" and "captain_obvious" tags.
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Post by Peter on Jan 21, 2013 16:47:30 GMT -5
Tzujanli, to address your specific request that I look at Engima's "style" to consider it's impact on the health of the forum. In the example you gave, I've already addressed that I share (what I imagine is) Engima's view of your approach; that whatever he replies you're going to find some fault with it, tell him that his " feet stink, again". I see you as trying to get him to make some definitive statement that you can then pull to bits. Of course you can pull it to bits, anything that is said is nonsense! Jack Kornfield tells a great anecdote (such an easy read, JK) of a student at a Zen retreat who confronts his teacher "Sir, today you told Dan one thing, but last week you told Steve the complete opposite" and the Zen Master explains that "it's like helping someone walk a path in the mist. They head off in one direction and you say 'Go Left, Go Left!' and you see someone heading off in another direction and you say 'Go Right, Go Right!'". I have this thing about relationships in that I think that how they start sets the flavour for how they'll continue, and even how they'll end. So I was looking back through your posts about how you and Engima first found yourselves...not getting on. 20 posts in to your tour of duty and perhaps E is looking to poke the new Teacher on the block with What do you mean by 'independently functioning'?" Note nothing personal, just a pure query for information. You respond, fine, and Enigma's response is great, doesn't knock you, and he's careful to say "As I see it", to explain where he's coming from. All good? The next time I see you address him, you're breaking into a conversation between him and Laughter and asking him Do you claim that post as irrefutable truth?. I mean, jeez, what teacher is ever going to allow you to tie them down with "Yes, I claim what I'm saying is irrefutable truth, and I'll have it tattooed on my backside to prove it"? You scored a hit asking him to back up his statement about baby's experience of oneness. You did use sarcasm to do so though, so that was you making fun of him first. Then when he talks about someone selling a Special for $19.95 you "make it all about you" and apparently imagine that he's having a go at you when it would be a far more obvious interpretation for him to be referring to the money making Mr Tolle? Just an example of you seeing something that was never there. We all do it. But I think your view of Enigma as "being against you" was already formed at that point. I suppose my view of your complaint is that I see you as having a go at Enigma far more vigourously than he's ever challenged you. You complain that he doesn't play on an equal playing field - which (since you can both write somewhat articulately and have equal opportunity to reply) I take to mean he doesn't take on board your points. Likewise, you do not take on his. How could you, one of you Teachers would have to conceed a point - Heaven forbid!
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Post by silver on Jan 21, 2013 16:47:44 GMT -5
Someone posted recently about how different things were when ZD was the moderator and that how after, the place started taking on the distinct flavor and tone of RT. Sounds significant to me. The way E treats his un-teaching position here, is like an athlete who can't stop polishing his trophies and has his own unique style of bristling at any and all serious challenges. Any teacher worth their salt - I don't care what colors they fly or anything else, if they can't stop at any given moment and get down to the level of their students, they have no place to even think themselves a 'real' one. Beingist apologized to Top for not reading walls of text, although I realize E's posts aren't walls, they often can be - and when I do read Top's I get far more out of what little am able to plow through as opposed to E's….worse than stereo instructions - which are almost obsolete, but y'know.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 17:10:37 GMT -5
Teachers! Teachers! Lord Save Us From Teachers! I find this more relevant to me than your post. I have yet to need saving from a teacher. I choose by way of conscious clear minded reasoning who i would classify as a teacher or not. Though i don't bother with the act of labeling another as such. Especially since a "teacher" may say something i don't agree with. Aka, the act of teaching is in the moment so where is the logic in permanently labeling a person as a teacher if they impart something worthless.
I listen to those that i am interacting with, if they say something valuable, i have learnt something, if they say something i do not value, i have not learnt anything. The label of teacher becomes a useless item in this situation.
In the ever changing movement of life, i am a student when i receive something valuable to me, and i am a teacher when i have imparted something to another that they value. Life is experienced as a verb, and labeled as a noun. Remove the labels(nouns) and the experience(verb) still exists... I am learning when i receive something valuable, i am teaching when i have imparted something to another that they value.
Perhaps a more fitting title would be, Teachers! Teachers! Lord save me from labeling people! The majority of drama in ST comprises of people running around with their label makers, cliquing, cliquing, cliquing away.
Specifically, as labels are not innately good or bad, the problem is how the user uses them. Aka, it's the inner structure of a person of why they label in each specific incident that needs looking into.
EDIT: I don't need saving from teachers because all i have to do is not listen to them. If they have nothing valuable to impart to me, i am free to walk away. Don't need anyone to save me from listening to them. Granted, i do have a mad skill of not being offended by a person's "style", but i think the reasoning is still sound.
So another title could be, Teachers! Teachers! Lord save me from my inability to stop interacting with people who rub me the wrong way.! Which could lead to another title of, Teachers! Teachers! Lord save me from not knowing why i choose to interact with people who rub me the wrong way!
I could write a ton of variations of those...bottom line is sort out why you are bothered by teachers, fix that then teachers will no longer be a problem. You have saved yourself from yourself, then any interactions with teachers will be completely different.
Profits will be down at the label making factory, but who gives a dingo's kidney about profits.
EDIT: spelling
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 21, 2013 17:17:33 GMT -5
Hi Peter, Yes, i am a teacher.. i teach Taiji, Martial Arts, QiGong, Taoist philosophy, and Life.. it is that last category, Life, that i share the student/teacher role as i find those qualified to teach.. this is where i sense that there is an issue between enigma and myself.. I have no issue at all with enigma as a peer, as a teacher, as an experienced being, but.. and i say this after many attempts here and at SF, enigma will not entertain reciprocity, an equal measure of respect.. he assumes the role of undisputed teacher and mocks or ridicules those not willing to be submissive students.. I am well into the consideration of abandoning this forum, as it is becoming clearer that there is a specific intention and a specific group that enjoys immunity for similar activities for which i am receiving unwanted and unwarranted attention.. Review, again, if you care to, maybe my first 25 posts .. i made some initial statements and some initial dialogues with folks, before reefs started poking at me, and.. early on enigma and i had a decent relationship.. but, right about here: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=misc&thread=2555&post=92805 things seem to deteriorate.. if you're looking for fault, i see it as shared, you will see it as you will.. but, i see that i am presenting accounts of my understandings for discussion, not for ridicule or mockery, that shuts down the discussion.. I am open and straightforward, i give what i get.. i'm not interested in mind-games, at all.. i am deeply interested in sincere discussions about life and existence.. if i am in the wrong forum please let me know, now.. Sincerely, Bob
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Post by silver on Jan 21, 2013 17:24:36 GMT -5
Peter - When I said this>>> ...just to be clear, I wasn't implying it had anything to do with you.
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Post by Beingist on Jan 21, 2013 17:29:46 GMT -5
Beingist apologized to Top for not reading walls of text, although I realize E's posts aren't walls, they often can be - and when I do read Top's I get far more out of what little am able to plow through as opposed to E's….worse than stereo instructions - which are almost obsolete, but y'know. I don't read E's text walls, either ( sorry, E).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 17:42:21 GMT -5
Give what you have, not what you get because you may not like what you get. If you don't like what is given and you give it back, you have become like them and have stopped being yourself, you violate your own code of conduct.
If you are fully open, penetrable, clear, expansive, like water, then no amount of poking will adversely affect you. With water there is still contact, still an observable form of self, but you effortlessly adapt to the poke and are not adversely affected by it. You accomodate it with no ill effects. It becomes simply an interesting sensation you can either explore or ignore.
If you are not attached to anything, they have nothing tangible to poke. If you are completely unattached, poking will simply cause your wholeness to move around, like a balloon. How utterly enjoyable is it to poke a balloon and watch it freely float around.
If another does not engage in conversation how you would like, they don't have to, either continue the same way, change your way or let it go and stop communicating.
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Post by quinn on Jan 21, 2013 17:55:11 GMT -5
Someone posted recently about how different things were when ZD was the moderator and that how after, the place started taking on the distinct flavor and tone of RT. Sounds significant to me. One person's opinion. I don't see much difference between then and now. As long as I've been here, there's been directness and pretty much zero coddling.
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Post by silver on Jan 21, 2013 18:00:58 GMT -5
Someone posted recently about how different things were when ZD was the moderator and that how after, the place started taking on the distinct flavor and tone of RT. Sounds significant to me. One person's opinion. I don't see much difference between then and now. As long as I've been here, there's been directness and pretty much zero coddling. While there's not much to read into/between lines of that person's opinion, it is something that 'somebody' noticed - I don't think it was said in an off-handed way - or put too much emphasis on it - but an observation is an observation - I can't be sure what you mean by 'zero coddling', though. It's nice to have you back to help add some balance - and your avy always gives me a smile.
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