Is there a devil?

[divinity]

I was raised with no religion or religious instruction. To me the devil is not real, but many humans believe in such a creature. Do you think there is a devil and if so why? If not, why not, since the perception of a devil is so pervasive in most societies.

[lobo]

divinity,
I have no reason to believe in anything like that.
But I can see how it would happen as a fear reaction.

[cabinintheforest]

There is no devil, satan or evil. Only Good (God) exists. We are God's creation and as we read in Genesis God created us Good.

The idea of there being a satan means there is two Gods. This is false duality. There is only 1 God.

[enigma]

The devil idea serves many functions and explains much, though it is just an idea. The dualistic mind naturally tries to create a negative polarity for God, which can also serve as an explanation for why a loving god would have suffering in his kingdom. There's also the cool drama of the battle of good and evil. The devil actually serves as quite an appropriate analogy for ego.

This may sound odd but although a devil cannot be created as a fundamental being, such entities can form as part of dualistic illusion. IOW, the creative force of belief could very well manifest a demon of some kind to reflect our fears, which we no doubt would be nonplussed about. As far as I know, we haven't succeeded in this though it seems we've been working on a few prototypes. Hehe.

[zendancer]

Jun 30, 2010 23:55:41 GMT -5 enigma said:

The devil idea serves many functions and explains much, though it is just an idea. The dualistic mind naturally tries to create a negative polarity for God, which can also serve as an explanation for why a loving god would have suffering in his kingdom. There's also the cool drama of the battle of good and evil. The devil actually serves as quite an appropriate analogy for ego.

This may sound odd but although a devil cannot be created as a fundamental being, such entities can form as part of dualistic illusion. IOW, the creative force of belief could very well manifest a demon of some kind to reflect our fears, which we no doubt would be nonplussed about. As far as I know, we haven't succeeded in this though it seems we've been working on a few prototypes. Hehe.

Enigma: So true. I have known two people who were able to conjure up a devil that was so realistic to them that they needed psychiatric assistance. It reminds me of the old science fiction movie "Forbidden Planet." The extinct Krell civilization in that movie had been destroyed by demonic forces that came from their own psyches. As a kid, I was mesmerized by the scene of the fiery monster in that movie and the scene where the monster was burning through the steel blast doors to get to the people trapped behind them (not knowing that the mad scientist with them was the one conjuring up the monster and giving it its power).

During the first six months after I began meditating, the dark side of the force first showed its face to me. I was meditating on a sofa at midnight across from a TV and VCR. The VCR had a tiny red light on the face of it. At some point, my peripheral vision caught a glimpse of the red light and suddenly I sensed a hugely malevolent force close at hand. The entity, or force, or whatever it was that I felt, had not yet manifested, but it seemed as if the portal from its world into my world lay through the red light. I still remember the fear I felt that night as I sensed that any continued attention on the red light by me would open the portal and allow the entity to physically manifest in the room with me. I jumped up, rushed across the room, and unplugged the VCR, thus shutting off the light. In retrospect, I am 99.9% sure that what I sensed that night was something conjured up by my own subconscious--something that Zen folks call "makyo" (literally--"devil world" of the mind)--but I am not 100% sure. Even now, twenty-five years later, I would not want to meditate at night in front of such a light. I don;t think that any of the Krell people would want to either! LOL. The universe is a bit too strange to take any chances with taunting it. Half LOL.

[skyblue]

During the first six months after I began meditating, the dark side of the force first showed its face to me. I was meditating on a sofa at midnight across from a TV and VCR. The VCR had a tiny red light on the face of it. At some point, my peripheral vision caught a glimpse of the red light and suddenly I sensed a hugely malevolent force close at hand. The entity, or force, or whatever it was that I felt, had not yet manifested, but it seemed as if the portal from its world into my world lay through the red light. I still remember the fear I felt that night as I sensed that any continued attention on the red light by me would open the portal and allow the entity to physically manifest in the room with me. I jumped up, rushed across the room, and unplugged the VCR, thus shutting off the light. In retrospect, I am 99.9% sure that what I sensed that night was something conjured up by my own subconscious--something that Zen folks call "makyo" (literally--"devil world" of the mind)--but I am not 100% sure. Even now, twenty-five years later, I would not want to meditate at night in front of such a light. I don;t think that any of the Krell people would

ZD: I'm very glad you mentioned this because I had a similar experience when I was in my twenties and began meditating. A friend suggested to me that I shouldn't meditate because I was a Cancer and I could easily be possessed. Naively, I believed her and it terrified me. I started having horrible images come to mind when I would try and meditate. I became scared of my own thoughts. Logically, I knew what she told me didn't make any sense such as what the heck does being a Cancer have to do with possession anyway? However, my fears overwhelmed me. Those were dark days for me as fear took over my life.
As I look back at that time, I can see that it was all subconscious fears. It was as if a purging took place so it was actually beneficial.

[zendancer]

Skyblue: Yes, I've read several accounts very similar to this. I think I mentioned one guy who saw a visage that was so scary he had to jump in a barrel of icewater to break free of it. One of my friends, who is a long-time meditator, has a brother who started meditating and had such a horrible experience one night early in his practice that he refused to ever meditate again. During meditation subconscious stuff rises to the surface of the mind and can manifest in lots of weird ways. Most of the strange stuff goes away within a year or so.

Interestingly, I have never heard of any makyo-like experiences that resulted from attending during the day, such as shifting from thoughts to what can be seen or heard. The only reason that I suggest some standard form of meditation (breath-counting, breath-following, listening to universal sound, etc) to beginners is that their minds are usually so uncontrollable that they can't shift from thoughts to sensory perception at will. The goal (that is not a goal) is to directly interact with "what is" on a daily basis. This activity is very much like sitting meditation, but apparently it doesn't trigger the bubbling up of subconscious stuff in the same way.

Abiding in nondual awareness is what some Zen folks call "relative samadhi." The actor, the action, and that which is acted upon are a unified whole. What they call "absolute samadhi" (the falling off of body and mind) only seems to occur during sitting meditation.

In Tim Freke's new book, "How Long is Now?", he criticizes, legitimately in my opinion, some Zen practitioners because of their extremely detached attitude toward some common human situations. The cases he cites relate to Zen monks rather than lay practitioners, and I think the Zen emphasis upon zazen (shikan taza) as the major form of recommended meditation may account for the coldness and detachment he criticizes. Freke's attitude is that when one becomes nondualistically immersed in life, one becomes fully human and therefore manifests the full range of human emotions.

Zen only has one or two stories that apply to this issue. One of the stories goes like this:

A woman offered a small hermitage behind her home to a monk who said he was very serious about getting enlightened. Each day she left some food and drink outside the hermitage, and the monk continued silently meditating for many months. After a while, the woman began wondering what the monk might have attained, so she decided to test his understanding. She sent her beautiful and curvaceous daughter out to visit the monk with a set of instructions about what to do. Her daughter knocked on the hermitage door, and when the monk opened the door, she suddenly embraced him with great passion. The monk held his arms rigidly to his sides and recited some famous lines from a spiritual text, "Though some are tempted, the world to me is like cold ashes and miles of frozen wasteland." After the daughter returned and told her mother what the monk had done and said, the mother rushed out to the hermitage, threw the monk out, and said, "If I had known that you were this kind of ignoramus, I'd have kicked you down the road when I first saw you."

Of course, this story is used as a koan, and the question that accompanies the story is, "If you had been the monk, and the daughter had embraced you, what would you have done differently than the monk?"

[robert]

seriously that's even a question?
r.

[zendancer]

Robert: You wouldn't believe how many people don't know how to answer it! LOL

[ravenscroft]

Jun 30, 2010 23:55:41 GMT -5 enigma said:

The devil idea serves many functions and explains much, though it is just an idea. The dualistic mind naturally tries to create a negative polarity for God, which can also serve as an explanation for why a loving god would have suffering in his kingdom. There's also the cool drama of the battle of good and evil. The devil actually serves as quite an appropriate analogy for ego.

This may sound odd but although a devil cannot be created as a fundamental being, such entities can form as part of dualistic illusion. IOW, the creative force of belief could very well manifest a demon of some kind to reflect our fears, which we no doubt would be nonplussed about. As far as I know, we haven't succeeded in this though it seems we've been working on a few prototypes. Hehe.

another great post

we seem to be on the same page with a lot of this enigma

[skyblue]

"In Tim Freke's new book, "How Long is Now?", he criticizes, legitimately in my opinion, some Zen practitioners because of their extremely detached attitude toward some common human situations."

ZD: I'm reading his book now and I tend to agree with this.

SkyBlue

[elduderino]

"If you had been the monk, and the daughter had embraced you, what would you have done differently than the monk?"

Zendancer, what's the right answer? Kiss the girl?

[zendancer]

Jul 2, 2010 7:53:19 GMT -5 elduderino said:

"If you had been the monk, and the daughter had embraced you, what would you have done differently than the monk?"

Zendancer, what's the right answer? Kiss the girl?

You could do that, but these kinds of koans are asked in a formal interview with the student sitting facing the teacher. What could you do or say that would show the teacher you understand the issue? You don't know the girl, and you don't know why she has suddenly embraced you, but you're a human being. In this case, the standard kind of answer would be to pantomine embracing the girl. Maybe she's confused you with someone else. Maybe she's suffered some tragedy and is seeking solace. If you pantomined kissing the girl, that might satisfy some teachers, but it goes a bit too far, IMO. We're looking for an appropriate response that demonstrates direct action and a heart connection to "what is." This is why I would pantomine warmly embracing the girl until I could better understand who she is, what she's looking for, or what she needs.

The monk, of course, was trapped by his ideas of what a spiritual life should look like. This story reminds me of the famous Zen story of the two monks who came to a shallow river and saw a young woman who needed to cross. One monk picked her up and carried her to the other side. A mile down the road the other monk said, "How could you bring yourself to touch a woman?" The first monk replied, "I put her down on the riverbank, but I see that you are still carrying her along." LOL.

[elduderino]

Something tells me that a warm embrace is a too simple answer. A zen teacher would probably beat one to death for this

Zendancer, do you remember a koan about a cat and a Zen master who puts his shoes onto his head?

P.S. Zen stories and koans are just wonderful. In a way they started my search. It is from these stories I heard the word "Enlightenment" for the first time.

P.S.S. By the way, a great story about the devil and the red lamp. Scared the sh*t out of me. In a very David Lynchean way.

[zendancer]

Jul 2, 2010 11:26:29 GMT -5 elduderino said:

Something tells me that a warm embrace is a too simple answer. A zen teacher would probably beat one to death for this

Zendancer, do you remember a koan about a cat and a Zen master who puts his shoes onto his head?

P.S. Zen stories and koans are just wonderful. In a way they started my search. It is from these stories I heard the word "Enlightenment" for the first time.

P.S.S. By the way, a great story about the devil and the red lamp. Scared the sh*t out of me. In a very David Lynchean way.

Ha ha. Yeah, I, too, love all the stories. It's been fifteen years since I read about the ZM who put shoes on his head. I think it was Joshu, who did that in response to the question, "Why did Bodhidharma (the Indian patriarch who supposedly brought Zen to China) come from the West?" The usual koan regarding this story is, "Why did Joshu put his shoes on his head in response to the question?"

There are so many great classic koans:

1. The whole world is on fire. Through what kind of samadhi can you escape?

2. Being a student of the nondual is like a man up a tree hanging by his teeth with his hands tied behind him. A student of the Way comes along and asks him to propound the Dharma. If he keeps his mouth shut, he fails in his responsibilities to help others, but if he opens his mouth to speak, he falls to his death. If you are the man up a tree, what can you do?

3. How do you take a step from the top of a 100 foot pole?

4. If you remove all the parts of a car, what becomes totally obvious?

5. Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said that the wind was moving. The other said that the flag was moving. Joshu came along and said, "You're both wrong. It is your mind that is moving." Joshu, however, made a big mistake. If you had been there, how could you have explicated the obvious?

6. What is the Great Way?

7. What is the True Way?

8. Why can't a strong man lift his own leg?

When my daughter was young, she could answer lots of koans with ease, but as she grew older, she could no longer do so. One day I was driving along with her when she was about eight years old. I asked her a koan that after a year of contemplation I thought I had finally solved. She answered, and I suddenly realized that my answer was wrong and hers was right! LOL.

Even today, after answering hundreds of koans, I'll sometimes be walking through the woods and an answer to an old previously unanswered koan will appear. The universe is very mysterious.