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Post by frankshank on Jun 22, 2010 15:37:59 GMT -5
I'm reading Jed Mckenna's 'Spiritual enlightenment : The Damnedest Thing' at the moment and in it he states: "most of the world's recognized experts on the subject of enlightenment are not enlightened. Some are great mystics, some are great scholars, some are both, and most are neither, but very few are awake". He estimates that there are "a few dozen truth realized beings alive on earth at any time"
This begs the question, if Mckenna is correct, how do we tell the difference? How many think they are awake who aren't? Is Mckenna awake? Are the respected people advising others on this forum awake? Are YOU really awake?
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Post by zendancer on Jun 22, 2010 18:08:23 GMT -5
I'm reading Jed Mckenna's 'Spiritual enlightenment : The d**nedest Thing' at the moment and in it he states: "most of the world's recognized experts on the subject of enlightenment are not enlightened. Some are great mystics, some are great scholars, some are both, and most are neither, but very few are awake". He estimates that there are "a few dozen truth realized beings alive on earth at any time" This begs the question, if Mckenna is correct, how do we tell the difference? How many think they are awake who aren't? Is Mckenna awake? Are the respected people advising others on this forum awake? Are YOU really awake? What a great koan! Am I awake? No! But I'm not asleep either. LOL |
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jun 22, 2010 19:39:20 GMT -5
I'm reading Jed Mckenna's 'Spiritual enlightenment : The d**nedest Thing' at the moment and in it he states: "most of the world's recognized experts on the subject of enlightenment are not enlightened. Some are great mystics, some are great scholars, some are both, and most are neither, but very few are awake". He estimates that there are "a few dozen truth realized beings alive on earth at any time" This begs the question, if Mckenna is correct, how do we tell the difference? How many think they are awake who aren't? Is Mckenna awake? Are the respected people advising others on this forum awake? Are YOU really awake? wow, I can't imagine cracking a new book by a new teacher. And is this guy Jed serious? who cares! My method is look, question, but never follow or believe gee, I hope I am pulling it off LOL |
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waddicalwabbit
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Let's all go down the wabbit hole
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Post by waddicalwabbit on Jun 22, 2010 19:42:26 GMT -5
So are we going to define 'enlightened' and/or 'awake' as the constant and abiding realization of oneness? I would imagine that the definition has already been argued in many other posts, but perhaps we should define it here, so we can address the statement from McKenna? Maybe that's just opening up another can 'o worms, but how else to address the original post? From my perspective, there are people on this site who: 1) don't understand nonduality at all (they seem to come and go), 2) Some who understand it, but haven't experienced it, 3) Some who understand it and have had glimpses of it (lived experience) 4) Some who understand it and regularly dip in and out of it (seems like the majority and they admit it and I like that) 5) Some who think they are living it and are apparently not, and F) Some who seem to be living it consistently. I read the posts of group 4 and the F troop with a bit more attention than the rest. I don't believe any of it on face value, but only by consistency of their comments and then i'm not completely sure until I've shared a few meals with them, meditated with them and seen them deal with life. I've really only met one person in 54 years who I'm about 99% sure is there on a consistent basis and it ain't me.  But that's just my take. |
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Post by klaus on Jun 22, 2010 20:09:27 GMT -5
frankshank,
There are over 6 billion human beings on earth.
How many are realized?
All of them, some don't know it yet.
Ask someone who's sleeping if they're awake, what response do you get, silence.
Shake someone awake and ask them if they're awake and what response do you get....
It's all in the shaking. lol
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Post by robert on Jun 22, 2010 21:03:55 GMT -5
read bernadette roberts The Experience of No Self, she speaks with a clear voice about the transition from oneness to the experience of no self knowing them to be very distinct and different places. she is a christian contemplative so she writes from the perspective of god and oneness being the same. and when jed writes i he also says that most people don't write about the difference because they don't know that there is one. in his words, they are selling something that they don't have.
robert
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Post by enigma on Jun 23, 2010 2:49:18 GMT -5
I think one of the games that consciousness plays, just as with nature, is the expression of infinite variations of 'Awakeness', and my first impulse when someone wants to categorize me into group 1 thru F is to run like hell. hehe. My second impulse is to deny, deny, deny. That's a heavy burden to place on a 'someone' and an annoying distraction for a 'nobody'. My advice, which is worth eggzakly what you pay for it, is not to believe anyone. Whatever you know, it's already too much. (Though that's not really true.) |
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Post by frankshank on Jun 23, 2010 6:41:04 GMT -5
I take everything I read in books and on this forum with a pinch of salt. The most impressive 3 words I read are 'I DON'T KNOW'!
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jun 23, 2010 19:51:00 GMT -5
I'm with you on that brother  I can hardly pick up a book these days, not because of lack of interest, but because it is a distraction, a major way to escape and not be present. It's worse than getting drunk but not as much fun! LOL Right now, there is no reason to search. It is all right here. |
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Post by enigma on Jun 24, 2010 1:56:58 GMT -5
I take everything I read in books and on this forum with a pinch of salt. The most impressive 3 words I read are 'I DON'T KNOW'! Well, that could be. I don't know. ::::Trying to impress Frank::::: |
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Post by frankshank on Jun 24, 2010 4:28:05 GMT -5
I take everything I read in books and on this forum with a pinch of salt. The most impressive 3 words I read are 'I DON'T KNOW'! Well, that could be. I don't know. ::::Trying to impress Frank::::: Your writing style, humour and poetry are highly impressive. As for the validity of the content, I don't know. ::::Trying to flatter and impress nobody::::: |
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Post by question on Jun 24, 2010 7:13:21 GMT -5
This whole not knowing business is funny. In the recent Coen Brothers movie "A Serious Man", the main character, troubled by all of his mundane problems visits a rabbi and they talk about God. At some point the rabbi indirectly admits to not knowing jack and out of this not knowing he extrapolates the ultimate mysterious unknowability of God. Here's a link to the youtube clip: www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfam7rqSQ-sIt apeears to me like there are at least two ways of "not knowing". One is to simply not know jack. The other is the assumption of the categorical unknowability of the kantian "Ding-an-sich" (thing-in-itself) or the rabbi's assumption of the unknowability of God. Sometimes I'm like the smart Rabbi Nachtner, sometimes I'm like poor Larry Gopnik. Sometimes I simply don't know and sometimes I assume some esoteric unknowability. Usually I oscillate between the two. |
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jun 24, 2010 8:04:22 GMT -5
There is a knowing, but it is not in the realm on intellectual knowing like facts and logic. All words will fail it in one way or another.
The "Not Knowing" is what is required of the mind.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 24, 2010 13:03:00 GMT -5
There is a knowing, but it is not in the realm on intellectual knowing like facts and logic. All words will fail it in one way or another. The "Not Knowing" is what is required of the mind. Burt: Ha ha. I was just getting ready to type almost exactly what you wrote, but you beat me to it. When I look around at "what is" without cognizing, I "know" what I'm looking at, but I "don't know" in terms of abstractions or separateness. I "know" in the sense of gnossis rather than episteme. |
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Post by enigma on Jun 25, 2010 1:03:50 GMT -5
Well, that could be. I don't know. ::::Trying to impress Frank::::: Your writing style, humour and poetry are highly impressive. As for the validity of the content, I don't know. ::::Trying to flatter and impress nobody::::: The best thing is to just assume that everything I say is the absolute truth. Hehe. Oops, I mean......well, i don't really know what I'm talking about ever.  |
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