awareness/perception all one ?

[synapticrythms]

My practice has shifted from thought destroying misconception to a more direct, simple abiding over the last few weeks. Am I correct in saying that it is not the attention, per se, that is the issue? It is more of an identification with the messages of the attention as being true or being all that there is?

ex. "I am my body." = attention to the body, then identification with the body, then dissolution of the awareness into the body with deepening attention and association until nothing else is seen.

versus this thought

ex. "I observe and see that I am more than this body. I can feel the thoughts of myself and the body of myself arising from somewhere deeper within me." = attention to the body withdrawn or maybe rather expanded to the interplay or energetic flow between the effect and the causal, then a shift of identification occurs as the causal is relaxed into by the identification itself... hard to put into words.

It is almost like identification is the end or causal point of the attention thread. There is no real importance there... just a simple abiding in whatever happens to be there, which can be body consciousness, mind or thought consciousness, awareness itself, or the coreness of Me.

So, perceptual control is the same as thought control, meaning that it is really a dead end trying to control the thoughts. It is rather the identification or layer of identification that needs to be pulled from the perception or thought itself.

Is this on the same track as what you are explaining? The practice "feels" right, but many things have felt right in the beginning only to find that it is another egoic side road.

Great thread. It is right along the lines of what I needed right now.

[zendancer]

Synapticrythms: As long as there is no one trying to "own" the practice, "you" seem to be perfectly on track. Abiding in the emptiness (or fullness--LOL) of "what is" cuts through the usual habit of thought-based identification.

When attention is directed away from thoughts to "what is," there is no separate person doing the directing even though it may appear that way at first. It is simply oneness manifesting in that manner.

[peanut]

Thanks all..this thread was so helpful...however, one last question please... i thought we could turn our attention from dwelling on thoughts to "what is" like coming back to the senses so doesn't that mean we have control over our attention? Thanks for your patience ;-)

[zendancer]

Jun 11, 2010 13:22:55 GMT -5 peanut said:

Thanks all..this thread was so helpful...however, one last question please... i thought we could turn our attention from dwelling on thoughts to "what is" like coming back to the senses so doesn't that mean we have control over our attention? Thanks for your patience ;-)

Peanut: Nope. Control implies a controller, and there is no "you" controlling or doing anything. That's the illusion. What the body/mind sees and interacts with is its own vast and mysterious unified field of being. We can call it "THAT," or "the Vastness," or "Oneness," or "God" in order to point it out, but it is beyond the mind's comprehension, and no words or thoughts can remotely describe it. THAT is what "what is" is, and THAT is what sees "what is." We could say that THAT includes both the observer and the observed, but even that statement implies a subtle separation into two imaginary states, and there is no such separation.

I am always amused by people who think that Buddhism and other paths of nonduality are forms of atheism. They usually jump to this conclusion because the Buddha never talked about God and the word "God" is rarely mentioned in eastern religions. You may have heard the following story, but it's worth repeating:

One time a layman asked for an audience with the Buddha and said to him, "I only have one question that I desperately need answered, a question that has consumed me for many years. Is there a God?" The Buddha remained totally silent, and simply looked at the man. After several long moments, the man's face suddenly lit up and shone with radiance. Filled with joy and gratitude, he bowed to the ground before the Buddha and said, "Thank you, thank you, thank you." He then got up and enthusiastically took his leave of the Buddha still radiating his happiness and joy.

The Buddha's disciples were mystified at what they had seen, and one his disciples said, "What did that man understand from your silence that made him so happy?" The Buddha replied, "Sometimes a horse only has to see the shadow of the whip."

This response came from an earlier teaching of the Buddha during which he said, "There are four kinds of horses. Some horses have to be whipped strongly to get them to move in the correct direction; some horses have to be whipped modestly; a few horses only need to feel the lightest flickering touch of the whip; but the finest horses are so sensitive that they only need to see the shadow of the whip."

[peanut]

zendancer.. Just caught the part when you said :


"When attention is directed away from thoughts to "what is," there is no separate person doing the directing even though it may appear that way at first. It is simply oneness manifesting in that manner." There's the catch...no separate person doing the directing...really got that!!! :-) Oh my gosh.... so excited!!!!
Thank you as always...

[loverofall]

Nonconceptual awareness is getting easier and I have put pointers all over the place. What are others experience with this. As I shift there are no thoughts and I can start identifying with the awareness but it is not groundbreaking. More peaceful as the suffering thoughts of identity and future and past are not there for those periods. This is what ZenDancer recommended and its very similar to resting in awareness as O'denver talks about. Its just getting much easier and I am tired of living in imagination, even good ones because it takes me farther away.

[cabinintheforest]

I am always amused by people who think that Buddhism and other paths of nonduality are forms of atheism.

lol you must of found some of my posts amusing then

[loverofall]

CABIN: It is my experience that you have no choice and your natural personality and conditioning have brought you to this board. The very act of being on this board and engaging like you do means your coming along bud whether you want to or not. LOL.

Of course there is no you to come along. Deep within there is something stirring. Your still attached to beliefs and at some point you will see that all beliefs are just abstract symbols and pointers to reality.

What a paradox I point out. You want to share your beleifs here but I tell you by coming here and interacting your beliefs will go away.

It will be interesting to see what this email does.

I do enjoy your posts. My favorite was the movie clip for Zendancer. That was great.

[cabinintheforest]

thanks loverofall

and by the way

iv got another clip here from the same film, can you spot zendancer in this one

[lobo]

Jun 11, 2010 8:45:00 GMT -5 synapticrythms said:

My practice has shifted from thought destroying misconception to a more direct, simple abiding over the last few weeks. Am I correct in saying that it is not the attention, per se, that is the issue? It is more of an identification with the messages of the attention as being true or being all that there is?

ex. "I am my body." = attention to the body, then identification with the body, then dissolution of the awareness into the body with deepening attention and association until nothing else is seen.

versus this thought

ex. "I observe and see that I am more than this body. I can feel the thoughts of myself and the body of myself arising from somewhere deeper within me." = attention to the body withdrawn or maybe rather expanded to the interplay or energetic flow between the effect and the causal, then a shift of identification occurs as the causal is relaxed into by the identification itself... hard to put into words.

It is almost like identification is the end or causal point of the attention thread. There is no real importance there... just a simple abiding in whatever happens to be there, which can be body consciousness, mind or thought consciousness, awareness itself, or the coreness of Me.

So, perceptual control is the same as thought control, meaning that it is really a dead end trying to control the thoughts. It is rather the identification or layer of identification that needs to be pulled from the perception or thought itself.

Is this on the same track as what you are explaining? The practice "feels" right, but many things have felt right in the beginning only to find that it is another egoic side road.

Great thread. It is right along the lines of what I needed right now.

Synaptic, this is very close to my experience lately as well. I like the way you describe it.
What I have seen as the main point is the "believing", not the thinking. Thinking is no more important than the weather, and just about as much under control. But the subtle process of believing a thought or interconnected thought-emotion complex is where one gets hooked. If it is not believed, assumed true, and invested with energy-attention from that, then it just falls away where it came form.
I would say another definition of abiding is not believing or investing with attention-energy anything that arises, just letting it all come and go.
I have called it attention-energy because believing it true solidifies it or gives it energy that may take some experience over time or effort in the form of direct inquiry to get it to dissolve.

Thanks for your post.

[lobo]

Jun 11, 2010 17:30:35 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Jun 11, 2010 13:22:55 GMT -5 peanut said:

Thanks all..this thread was so helpful...however, one last question please... i thought we could turn our attention from dwelling on thoughts to "what is" like coming back to the senses so doesn't that mean we have control over our attention? Thanks for your patience ;-)

Peanut: Nope. Control implies a controller, and there is no "you" controlling or doing anything. That's the illusion. What the body/mind sees and interacts with is its own vast and mysterious unified field of being. We can call it "THAT," or "the Vastness," or "Oneness," or "God" in order to point it out, but it is beyond the mind's comprehension, and no words or thoughts can remotely describe it. THAT is what "what is" is, and THAT is what sees "what is." We could say that THAT includes both the observer and the observed, but even that statement implies a subtle separation into two imaginary states, and there is no such separation.

I am always amused by people who think that Buddhism and other paths of nonduality are forms of atheism. They usually jump to this conclusion because the Buddha never talked about God and the word "God" is rarely mentioned in eastern religions. You may have heard the following story, but it's worth repeating:

One time a layman asked for an audience with the Buddha and said to him, "I only have one question that I desperately need answered, a question that has consumed me for many years. Is there a God?" The Buddha remained totally silent, and simply looked at the man. After several long moments, the man's face suddenly lit up and shone with radiance. Filled with joy and gratitude, he bowed to the ground before the Buddha and said, "Thank you, thank you, thank you." He then got up and enthusiastically took his leave of the Buddha still radiating his happiness and joy.

The Buddha's disciples were mystified at what they had seen, and one his disciples said, "What did that man understand from your silence that made him so happy?" The Buddha replied, "Sometimes a horse only has to see the shadow of the whip."

This response came from an earlier teaching of the Buddha during which he said, "There are four kinds of horses. Some horses have to be whipped strongly to get them to move in the correct direction; some horses have to be whipped modestly; a few horses only need to feel the lightest flickering touch of the whip; but the finest horses are so sensitive that they only need to see the shadow of the whip."

zendancer,
wow, that is very clearly stated.
It is very gracious of you to share your insight so freely.
Thanks
But then, you don't really have a choice do you LOL
Doesn't take anything away form the quality of the action though.

Something I heard once...."Love returning for itself"....to describe the process of awakening.....

[Myself]

haha nice video