Debate

[question]

Jun 17, 2010 23:56:26 GMT -5 Peter said:

Jun 17, 2010 21:07:18 GMT -5 question said:

Why can't I simply say that the universe built the castle?

Well of course you're welcome to say whatever you like. You could say it was build by a Flying Spaghetti Monster if you wanted. But unless the mechanism of it's being built is known, then there can be no real understanding.

Or so it seems to me. I obviously have my scientist head on today...

Are you implying that the universe is just another idea no more real than the FSM?

Ok this is my thought process: Did the shovel build the castle? No, the shovel isn't an isolated object and it appears like the body is moving it, without the body the shovel would just be lying around not building anything. Did the body build the castle? Not exactly, because if without a conscious center, it isn't qualitatively different from the shovel and the body is still one with its surroundings, so I might aswell say that the planet built the castle. Now I repeat this process and expand it to contain the entire planet, our galaxy and finally the universe. Next I ask what the universe really is and my answer would be "Being". Next I ask what being is and with this question a shift occurs where the only way to find out what being is (which I now have identified as the builder of the sand castle) is to focus on my own experience, what is right here and now.

I have now travelled the entire universe to come back to exactly where I started, did I make a wrong turn somewhere?

[enigma]

What if your experience can't tell you what being is?

[question]

If I knew for a fact that experience can't tell me what Being is, then I would instantly quit looking for it.

I understand why it can't be experienced. From the point of view of Being, it's not like there is an isolated experience followed by another. This can only be done by me mentally interpreting a continuity into seperate events. So if I ask "what is Being" I have to say "this!" (whatever is here now), but even that is still too late. Whatever I'm doing I'm always too late.

[enigma]

Experience is always something that is happening, whereas you are not a happening at all. You don't 'happen' and so you cannot be experienced. You are the experiencer rather than the experience; the subject rather than the object. If you were being experienced, the question would have to be asked, who or what is experiencing being experienced? You are prior to all experiences.

There is an assumption made from within our habitual belief in our identity as a mind/body, and this assumption is that whatever exists can observe and experience itself. We can observe the mind (thoughts/feelings) and body and so even when we challenge the notion that we are the mind/body, we usually still retain the notion that we can observe whatever we actually are. However, we can notice how fundamentally flawed this assumption is. We don't have to know what it is that exists or that we aren't a mind/body or any of that, only that if something exists, it can't possibly observe itself as an object of it's own perception, and therefore can't have an experience of itself. It doesn't require enlightenment to see this, and seeing this is not an experience, it's just seeing that it has to be so.

This isn't the end of seeking, but it is the end of seeking an experience of the Self. The objective experience of Being cannot happen, and the subjective realization of Being is already the case (You know you exist), so what is needed? The absence of the belief that 'I am this or that'. We seek the absence of the one who seeks.

[synapticrythms]

Thank you, enigma... that last post really resonated with me.

[runstill]

enigma I was out enjoying nature this morning noticing the vast variety of plants, flowers, insects, animals both in the air and on the ground and it occurred to me the universe is practically screaming be present notice me.I thought why do I use thought to see what is.It feels like a waste of energy and I know it causes separation.

I sense the indescribable wonder of what is but don't quite get there.It is frustrating the ego won't just step a side for a moment.

Ive known life without separation once before just for a few moments and it scared me afterward.Now I'm afraid I may not have perception without separation again.

I wonder if now having and intellectual understanding of what occurred will be a hindrance or maybe allow the ego to relax to maintain that state if it happens again.

I would be interested in your thoughts if your inclined to offer any.

[Dino]

Greetings,

I would like to know where do the people on this forum stand in the Creationism VS evolution debate?

Are you creationists? (You believe God created us, like it says in genesis)

Or are you evolutionists? (that life started randomly from a few cells)

What are your opinions on Creationism or evolution. Please share.

So which one do people support on this forum? Creationism, evolution or something else? Please share.

[enigma]

Jun 20, 2010 16:57:11 GMT -5 runstill said:

enigma I was out enjoying nature this morning noticing the vast variety of plants, flowers, insects, animals both in the air and on the ground and it occurred to me the universe is practically screaming be present notice me.I thought why do I use thought to see what is.It feels like a waste of energy and I know it causes separation.

I sense the indescribable wonder of what is but don't quite get there.It is frustrating the ego won't just step a side for a moment.

Ive known life without separation once before just for a few moments and it scared me afterward.Now I'm afraid I may not have perception without separation again.

I wonder if now having and intellectual understanding of what occurred will be a hindrance or maybe allow the ego to relax to maintain that state if it happens again.

I would be interested in your thoughts if your inclined to offer any.

Funny, when I read Synaptic's response, a thought occurred and I almost posted and then got lazy. Hehe. So here it is again.
Because Being cannot be directly experienced, it must be seen as a reflection , and so life is precious, sacred, miraculous, wondrous, powerful, agonizing and of course it 'screams to be noticed' and you ARE noticing. This is existence dancing this sultry, enticing dance. It's not about goodness or fairness or justice or pleasure, it's about the power of life in a death grip, the frantic weaving together of pain and pleasure, harmony and chaos, love and fear. It's not a church social, it's a cliff hanger; not about earning our wings, but learning to fly. Innocence is courageous and daring, and we ARE innocent, only our reflection is timid. God doesn't play small games and is not afraid to die.

Thought is a reflection of this reflection; a dull, insidious glimpse 'through a glass darkly' so as to cushion us from our fear. Imagine yourself on the threshold of new life, faced with the choice of living fully and taking whatever comes, or living half asleep like some zombie, barely feeling, and so feeling almost safe in our somnambulistic daze. I think i know which you would choose, and yet what have nearly all of us chosen? Every day, i see zombies playing little, safe games in their minds, and it tears at my heart and seems an affront to our true nature.

Yes, what a waste. What a terrible waste.

[enigma]

Jun 20, 2010 17:09:32 GMT -5 @Dino said:

Greetings,

I would like to know where do the people on this forum stand in the Creationism VS evolution debate?

Are you creationists? (You believe God created us, like it says in genesis)

Or are you evolutionists? (that life started randomly from a few cells)

What are your opinions on Creationism or evolution. Please share.

So which one do people support on this forum? Creationism, evolution or something else? Please share.

I support waking the hell up and dropping all that meaningless bullshit like a hot rock. (sorry)

[runstill]

enigma thank you just an awesome reply. Almost every sentence I'd like to quote. But this one hit me. ( Its about the power of life in a death grip) that is darkly beautiful.

[Portto]

Jun 20, 2010 17:09:32 GMT -5 @Dino said:

So which one do people support on this forum? Creationism, evolution or something else? Please share.

Hello Dino.

As 'Enigma' mentioned, this forum is about discovering our "true" identity (aka waking up). It's about perception and identity.

[Portto]

Jun 20, 2010 17:49:09 GMT -5 enigma said:

Funny, when I read Synaptic's response, a thought occurred and I almost posted and then got lazy. Hehe. So here it is again.
Because Being cannot be directly experienced, it must be seen as a reflection , and so life is precious, sacred, miraculous, wondrous, powerful, agonizing and of course it 'screams to be noticed' and you ARE noticing. This is existence dancing this sultry, enticing dance. It's not about goodness or fairness or justice or pleasure, it's about the power of life in a death grip, the frantic weaving together of pain and pleasure, harmony and chaos, love and fear. It's not a church social, it's a cliff hanger; not about earning our wings, but learning to fly. Innocence is courageous and daring, and we ARE innocent, only our reflection is timid. God doesn't play small games and is not afraid to die.

Thought is a reflection of this reflection; a dull, insidious glimpse 'through a glass darkly' so as to cushion us from our fear. Imagine yourself on the threshold of new life, faced with the choice of living fully and taking whatever comes, or living half asleep like some zombie, barely feeling, and so feeling almost safe in our somnambulistic daze. I think i know which you would choose, and yet what have nearly all of us chosen?

Every day, i see zombies playing little, safe games in their minds, and it tears at my heart and seems an affront to our true nature.

Yes, what a waste. What a terrible waste.

Another excellent post Enigma!
Could it be that there's some resistance and judgment in the last two sentences?
Nevertheless, I do feel the same way as you.

[enigma]

Jun 20, 2010 19:08:36 GMT -5 Portto said:

Jun 20, 2010 17:49:09 GMT -5 enigma said:

Funny, when I read Synaptic's response, a thought occurred and I almost posted and then got lazy. Hehe. So here it is again.
Because Being cannot be directly experienced, it must be seen as a reflection , and so life is precious, sacred, miraculous, wondrous, powerful, agonizing and of course it 'screams to be noticed' and you ARE noticing. This is existence dancing this sultry, enticing dance. It's not about goodness or fairness or justice or pleasure, it's about the power of life in a death grip, the frantic weaving together of pain and pleasure, harmony and chaos, love and fear. It's not a church social, it's a cliff hanger; not about earning our wings, but learning to fly. Innocence is courageous and daring, and we ARE innocent, only our reflection is timid. God doesn't play small games and is not afraid to die.

Thought is a reflection of this reflection; a dull, insidious glimpse 'through a glass darkly' so as to cushion us from our fear. Imagine yourself on the threshold of new life, faced with the choice of living fully and taking whatever comes, or living half asleep like some zombie, barely feeling, and so feeling almost safe in our somnambulistic daze. I think i know which you would choose, and yet what have nearly all of us chosen?

Every day, i see zombies playing little, safe games in their minds, and it tears at my heart and seems an affront to our true nature.

Yes, what a waste. What a terrible waste.

Another excellent post Enigma!
Could it be that there's some resistance and judgment in the last two sentences?
Nevertheless, I do feel the same way as you.

Well, it doesn't feel that way. It feels like compassion. If you came upon a family trapped in a burning building, I'm sure you would act in any way you could. You wouldn't see it as resisting what is happening and you wouldn't stop to judge. I'm not a world saver, but in a way humanity is trapped in a burning building. I talked elsewhere yesterday about sadness. Maybe you saw it. It's quite palpable at the moment, but it's not a problem, if that makes any sense.

[loverofall]

Carl Sagan had a great quote "before you make an apple pie, first make the universe".

We somehow take this energy moving through us causing thoughts, emotions, sensations as being our own and independent.

Only because the brain evolved to have thoughts did an ego develop to "think its separate and unconnected to the whole"

[loverofall]

Enigma: I used to look around and see how the "zombies" are trapped in their circles and think what a waste.

Now I see thinking anything is a waste is a desire to see it differently. Desire will always takes you away. Trust me when I say its definitely resistance and judgement.

It doesn't mean you won't show compassion if that is what your conditioning/personality does.

It might seem like you are making the choice but the choice is just happening just like thoughts. Your mind/body is on this path because of a gazillion random energy vibrations up to this point.